Mortgage Surveys

[Ian Wilson]

I just had a call from a gentleman who's refinancing his house. His "loan guy" has told him he needs a Survey. The description of the survey and the projected cost is the definition of a Mortgage Survey.

According to the "loan guy", this is an FHS requirement and is done all the time, even in California.

So...question...who is going out and doing these drive by surveys for less than $300? What is it that you're actually doing to earn this princely sum?

.

[VANCE]

This is what I found out about a "mortgage surveys"
According to the text below, it is a simple survey, show building locations, boundary, easements, ect.., (in a perfect world, than again why would they want to spend the money for it, unless they new something was wrong). Well I guess is doing these for $300.00 (I hope they are licensed) they can not be making much money for the amount of liability they are assuming.


Before purchasing a home, or indeed any piece of real estate, it is important to investigate the condition of the property. This does not simply mean walking around the property to take a look at it. In fact, most of the facts that comprise the condition of the property can't actually be seen this way. Your methods of determining the true condition should range from a physical inspection to uncover any work needing to be done, to an official land survey of the property.

A mortgage survey is one type of survey you might have done on a piece of property you want to purchase. While a physical inspection focuses on the condition of the building, a mortgage survey investigates the property itself. A mortgage survey is a type of property survey that can reveal a lot of information on possible problems. Other property surveys will reveal differing levels of information. A land surveyor can advise you which type of property survey would meet your needs. By choosing the most appropriate type of property survey, you can avoid a lot of the problems associated with buying property.

When considering properties as a prospective buyer, the first information to look at is the Home Condition Report, which may already have been prepared by the seller. This will disclose some information on the property, but remember that it may be biased, as it is coming from the seller. Always get a reliable third-party report which provides information on the exact condition and value of the property before committing to the deal.

Other reports include land surveys conducted by licensed land surveyors. One such type is known as a mortgage survey. This type of survey is required by most mortgage companies if you'll be requiring financing for your purchase of the property. The cost of this survey may even be covered by the mortgage company. They may also be known as a title survey because it is often required by the title company.

A mortgage survey is generally conducted to determine land boundaries and building locations. A relatively simple survey, it will note buildings, sheds, fences, easements and required building setbacks, and natural landmarks. After a mortgage survey has been conducted, you can rest assured that the structure you are purchasing meets current zoning and building codes and that no one is encroaching on your property. Mortgage surveys may be considered plot plans or other categories of property surveys when it includes additional details not usually included in a mortgage survey.

It is always better to get a reliable third-party survey conducted by a licensed land surveyor to be sure you are getting the whole picture. Be sure to choose a mortgage survey by a licensed land surveyor and not a mortgage inspection, which does not have to adhere to the same standards and is not considered an official land survey.

The survey you receive will provide a comprehensive report of the property details. You may think that it's unnecessary because the property you're interested in looks to be in good condition, but you'd be surprised what a survey can turn up. There is a reason why mortgage companies require such reports before they will provide financing. Besides the purchase of the land, a mortgage survey can also help you in the planning stages of any further improvements, though additional surveys may be necessary depending on the scope of your project.

We at Point to Point Land Surveyors pride ourselves on accuracy, customer service and quality work delivered on time, guaranteed. Residential land surveys are a specialty.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Charles_Iner

[Ian Wilson]

Vance:

I know what a Mortgage Survey is.

They're not worth a tea cup of warm spit.

In the states that allow them, there's virtually no liability attached because there's no real survey involved.

They're not valid in California.

Since the "Loan Guy" claims that these types of surveys are done in California all the time, my question is "Who is doing them?"

[Anthony Maffia]

Sounds like you should pass on this client & his "loan guy."

[E_Page]

A "tea cup of warm spit"? Feeling a little charitable today, Ian?

IMO, Mortgage "surveys" are among the worst supposed professional products sprung upon an unsuspecting public.

They are not surveys at all, but inspections. And since there is no boundary resolution, these inspections are based upon speculation or rough estimate (the boundary is about here, +/- a few feet) There may be some minimal measurement involved, but there is no boundary resolution. And then a drawing is prepared that looks for all intents and purposes to a non-surveying public like a survey. It has dimensioned boundary lines like a survey, it often shows some improvements and monument locations like a survey, it depicts improvements relative to the boundary like a survey, and it is signed and stamped by a licensed surveyor which looks super official to anyone who doesn't read the little notes off to the side (which is just about anyone other than surveyors).

Regardless of whether the surveyor places a note in fine print or bold block lettering that "this is not a boundary survey", eveyone from the realtor, the appraiser, the title officer, the lender, to the client will all refer to it as "the survey". Worse than that, many surveyors performing these Certificates of Malfeasance will also call them a survey!

My understanding is that these things are something that the title industry foisted upon an unsuspecting home buying public with surveyors for whom real boundary surveying is too complicated and construction staking just too much work going along as more than willing accomplices.

And when you run across a "professional" (I use that word very loosely here) who wishes to defend the practice, find out how much they charge for one of these Records of Negligent Practice. You will find that it is an amount which only allows two field grunts about an hour on site and a CAD monkey about an hour to draw it up, leaving enough profit for the boss to take his wife out for a decent dinner with a cheap bottle of wine.

They are a waste of a sheet of otherwise useful printer stock.


But other than that, they're really helpful and a great way to make a little beer money. Just smudge your stamp and scrawl your name illegibly when you give the drawing to your client.

[Ian Wilson]

Lee:

How about §8726(a), (c), (g), (h), (l), (m) and (n), §8762(b)(4); §8764, §8771, §8772 of the Business and Professions Code and §1451 of the Evidence Code for starters.

[pls7809]

My guess would be that no one who spends their time on this site does them. But you never know I guess.

[subman]

Would you agree that in theory, a "mortgage survey" can be done in California within a city that has a requirement to monument all lot corners in a subdivision. Provided the surveyor finds no material discrepancies, and all original monuments of record are found to be of the same character.

Under these conditions, it does not appear a CR or ROS filing is mandatory. Under these conditions, minimal field work/office work would be needed to prepare the mortgage survey plat. This appears to "minimally" comply with the PLS Act (8773 & 8765(d)).

Granted, many licensed professionals may want to do more survey work to see how the lot corners fit in harmony with street intersection and subdivision boundary monuments in the area.

I want to stress in this example that the lot corner monuments are original and set at the time the subdivision was recorded, and not a subsequent survey where the front corners were prorated in and the back corners set at record angle/distance.

Food for thought...

[E_Page]

Dennis,

In the hypothetical you present, the surveyor would need "to do more survey work to see how the lot corners fit in harmony with street intersection and subdivision boundary monuments in the area" just to meet the minimum standard of care for a boundary survey. Which is what one must do.

So the question would then be, can a surveyor then produce the Mortgage Inspection document/drawing without violating any laws, and could he do it at a fee that approaches the fire sale prices often associated with MIs?

To the first part, yes, I suppose he could produce an MI and not file a RS or CR in this very rare case. Some might argue that he would be making corner accessories of the improvements shown, thus requiring a CR, but I would dispute whether showing improvements relative to a PL, under these conditions would trigger any such requirement.

Could he meet the standard of care and still be able to offer this service at $300 to $500? Doubtful, but if he is using very cheap equipment and using field help that he pays minimum wage, does his own drafting and doesn't mind making chainman wages for himself, then yeah, I suppose he could.

But why let the camel's nose under the tent on the basis of the perfect and rare example?

The whole purpose of these things is so that title insurance companies can have a very cheap method to offload some liability. Why should or would surveyors be stupid enough to take it on for dirt wages? The title companies and every other "professional" that a home buyer relies on to get them through the biggest purchase most of them will make in their lives are passing these things off as a survey. When confronted with that, they deny it, saying "look at the note. It says right here that this survey is not a survey." But still, all refer to it as a survey and the home buying public most often think that they are getting some sort of assurance of their property corners because they had it surveyed when they bought the place. They have no idea that what they bought was a way for the title company to wiggle out of any title or boundary issues which may appear later, but bought themselves nothing. It's worse than useless.

Then, some time later when a neighbor builds a fence and it's 3' closer to their house than what their "survey" says the property line is, they indignantly wave their Document of Malfeasance in their neighbor's face loudly proclaiming "My survey says your on my property!"

And why shouldn't they? They have this fancy document with the name of some survey company with the official stamp and signature of a Licensed professional Surveyor. It HAS to be right.

And then the neighbor comes back out with his survey, on a piece of paper 4 times the size, with more stamps and signatures, some of which are from the County Surveyor and County Recorder. All of a sudden, this homeowner starts getting a clue that he might not have what he thought he did.

So he goes and talks to the surveyor who prepared his official property cartoon (if the surveyor is still around), and is informed that he can't rely on it because although it looks like a survey, it ain't. "See this note right here? You may have to put your glasses on to read it. Yeah, it says right here that this survey isn't a survey."

"But I paid you good money for this! I paid $300! OK, OK, what's an official survey of my property going to cost?"

And then the outrage occurs.


The only reason needed to oppose Mortgage Inspections is that they give the home buying public the false impression that they are getting a real survey of some value that somehow protects their interests.

They are a fraud, period!

[bruce hall]

I do not get any calls regarding "mortagage surveys". Never have, near as I can remember.

[subman]

Evan

Don't get me wrong. I agree 100% with your position on the subject.

Relative to the "Standard of Care"; by expanding the survey beyond the lot corners, what type of survey evidence could one find that might lead to an alternate position of lines and corners for the lot with respect to the "original subdivision lot corners"?

[Anthony Maffia]

I read about "Mortgage Surveys" some years ago, as being $300 drive by surveys in Texas where they measured to fences and certified against setbacks. They obviously don't conform to Calif. law, and the economics don't apply either. The broker is probably from out-of-state, and is giving his client bad information.

Anyone who doesn't know what he needs, but only wants to pay $300 should be avoided.

[Lee Hixson]

His loan guy is bluffing....

[E_Page]

Evan

Don't get me wrong. I agree 100% with your position on the subject.

Relative to the "Standard of Care"; by expanding the survey beyond the lot corners, what type of survey evidence could one find that might lead to an alternate position of lines and corners for the lot with respect to the "original subdivision lot corners"?

Dennis,

The scenario you presented is the ideal for a survey with zero difficulty and absolutely no requirment to file a RS or CR. I didn't say anything about alternate positions, but the applicable standard of care would require the surveyor to do at least enough work to determine that none exist. Tie into block corners, a few center line mons, or some other lot corners up and down the street to ensure that this polygon that is the subject lot that perfectly matches record map dimensions also fits as well within the neighborhood.

It's possible that you could find that your perfect polygon was replaced incorrectly by some party chief blindly following map dimensions and working from incorrect control.

Let me paint the picture how this is not so far fetched.

In 2005, ABC Engineering performs all of the staking for Rolling Flatlands Estates. Part of that staking was the placement of final mons. As often happens, the crew sets the lot corners shortly after all the utilities are completed and some of the homes are being built. As the homes are being built, the fence contractor is also installing those nice 6' privacy fences along all the lot lines, destroying or disturbing many of the lot corner rebar as they go. Other lot corners are wiped out by lingering construction activities and equipment moving around.

Several of the lots don't get built on right away, sitting empty for a couple of years. During that time, irrigation contactors have come in to install sprinkler systems so that all the lotowners can kep their little patches of grass nice and green. They wipe out a few more rebar.

in 2007, a home builder wants to get started on Lot XXX but can't find the corners, so the developer calls ABC and asks that they reset those corners. So ABC sends out Charlie Chief and Randy Rodman to do it since Charlie did a lot of the staking back in '03.

So Charlie and Randy go out with a plot showing the pertinent points, a coordinate list, a loaded DC, and a copy of the map. H never looks at the map or checks the calcs because Carl the CAD guy hardly ever screws up. Besides, if he does, that's Carl's problem. The union isn't paying Charlie to chack and redo calcs.

Charlie puts Randy on the gun because Charlie wants to walk around some this morning. Randy sets the instrument on a nearby still existing iron and backsight another down the street. He doesn't even pay attention to the message that popped up on the DC screen - it's always popping up with some irrelevant message - just OKs it and starts spraying out points.

What Randy didn't notice and Charlie didn't check on, was that Randy assumed he was sitting on a Lot corner iron, but in reality was on a rebar marking an EC 2.3' away. Charlie never even looked at the map to realize there were originally irons 2.3' apart where he had Randy set up. Carl didn't catch it because in 2005 everyone at ABC was too busy to check all the field data files that come back into the office, and Charlie, knowing the site, isn't likely to screw this up. And Lot XXX, is now staked as a perfect polygon, perfectly matching the map dimensions for Lot XXX on the map of Rolling Flatlands, exactly 2.3' out of place with respect to the rest of th neighborhood.

In 2010, FBN (Fly By Night) Mortgage Surveys is contacted by First Amalgamated Title Company to do a $300 Mortgage "survey". FBN sends out Sloppy Sam and Dimwit Doug. Sam Sets his 10" construction grade South Instrument TS on an iron he assumes is a front corner of Lot XXX, sights a rod Doug is holding at an iron they assume to be a back corner and gets a distance reasonably matching the dimension shown on the xerox he was sent with showing a portion of the record map showing Lot XXX. He spins an angle to the other "front" and hits it so proceeds to locate the house and driveway, then their gone. He checks no other monumentation. About an hour on site. The Boss will be happy.

And the new homeowner is later provided a copy of the "map" and thinks he got a survey for $300.

[subman]

Thanks Evan, your example was helpful. The phrase "Trust and Verify" will help me remember part of what constitutes the "Minimum Standard of Care".

[goodgps]

EVAN ???

Sloppy Sam . . .and Dimwit Doug !!!!!

i havent had a good belly laugh since October of 2008 !!!!! OUCH !!!

We get these requests from clients all the time. People are told $250 - $300

Cant even roll the truck outta the parking lot for that . . . But i do see random little pickups and a solo guy w/ a robotic . . . doin stuff near my "hood" all the time . . . I say "Whatever . . .. knock yourself out big guy"