WHO NEEDS THE "P" ???

[TIB]

Who needs the big "P"? I don't, Do you? Don,t lie! A quick website survey (a count) reveals that most (not all) all of those persons with an 'LS" as part of name or username, feel the need to insert the big "P". Where did it come from?
Who decided that It was good?
.Many years ago, I attended mandatory survey classes as a rookie. After class I would frequently get together with other classmates to study Surveying. Or was it drink beer? I can't remember. We spoke of the magical LS often.
"Are you gonna try for your LS after college?" "You better study more, or you'll never get your LS" "All the good surveyors have their LS" "If you're not a good surveyor, get your LS so you can become good. I wasn't quite sure what the LS was or how to get it. All I was sure of, was It was called an LS, and I wanted one too. After many years, I realized how difficult and challenging it is to get an LS. It was gonna take a lot of work. But now, PLS is king of the heap. Somehow it must be better than just a regular LS. Who decided that? My Certificate on the wall does not have a "P" in front of Land Surveyor. A colleague of mine recently became Licensed, and uses the title LS 8xxx for his business. He joined the CLSA, and they sent him a nice new wall certificate with "John Doe PLS 8xxx" I guess he got an upgrade. It's clear where the CLSA stands. Professionalism comes from attitude,integrity, and work results, not from the letter "P". Does a doctor insist on being called a PMD? Does the public perceive a PLS somehow superior to just a regular LS? If anything, they are confused by two different titles. My boss, on old RE (or is it RCE, probably PE by now) said it best, "although they work outside and in the dirt, Surveyors don't want to be perceived as blue collar. So they added a "P" It's an ego booster more than anything else" I tend to agree with him. I wanted my LS from the first day I started surveying. I worked hard. I studied hard. I got my LS. I'm Proud of it. I like it. I,m going to keep it. I,m not going to change it. As for the "P", thanks, but no thanks, I don't want it.








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[RAM]

I do, It is a way of thinking, how you interact with others in business, besides it is the title in my License.

[LS_8750]

Funny you should mention it.

My first was the PE. It was always, "get your degree then work hard and get your PE". I never heard of an RCE, or RE until I was digging up pipes with RE and RCE tags on them. Engineers don't refer to each other as RCEs or REs, they are PEs.

As for the LS, it's always been LS for me. Never heard of a PLS until I got into reading Point of Beginning, American Surveyor, CLSA Mag: then I started noticing PLS. I thought it meant at one time they were federally licensed Public Land Surveyors - to tell you how daft I was. Like you, I wanted my LS from day one. I recently got my LS. I worked hard for it, I studied for it, I developed professionally for it. I earned it, it's my LS!

What's this PLS? I really had to think about it when getting my stamp. LS (or PLS) Act Section 8750 dictates stamp content and says you can put "Licensed Land Surveyor" or "Professional Land Surveyor" across the top - Well I have a license to fish, hunt, and drive a car, but as far as being a land surveyor I am a professional.

So then it was signatures on letters and such. I talked to a couple younger LS guys and they said "hell yeah, put the P in there". Asked my wife, she said the same thing. I mean "PE" seems more natural than just E, so in my mind I figured what the hell add the P to the LS and next thing I know it's like I'm asking "please" every time I sign my name because pls looks to me like a shorthand "please".

Now I feel like a jackass. I'm going back to LS.

Thanks!


I suspect average folks don't notice, or know what LS or PLS even means. But what about lawyers, title officers, engineers, accountants? Does anybody have any real justification for the P?

[bruce hall]

the term "Professional Land Surveyor" was not a sanctioned title that I could use in the "LSA"-Land Surveyors Act" which was part of the "Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors Act." This is how I remember it.

I was allowed to use the title of Land Surveyor, Licensed Land Surveyor, maybe even Surveyor, but not "Professional Land Surveyor".

Civil Engineers and other engineers were allowed BY LAW to use the term "Professional" preceding their title, but not land surveyors.

I sign most of my documents Bruce Hall, Land Surveyor or Bruce Hall LS 4743. This is habit. Most of my cadd work is done by fellas/girls that put the P in front of the LS. Don't care, but it is probably better with the P in front. Either way it looks fine to me.

As far as me seeing "PLS" as shorthand for "Please", I am not buying into that. I got glasses to see with and never once did I think it meant please or thank you.

My tags have LS 4743 stamped in them. Many of my associates use PLS and I think that's great that they can do that.

If some of you guys/girls don't want to use the "P", don't use it. You don't #%@$*&% have to. And it's no skin off my nose either. But if you ever want to use it in the future (for whatever reason), you can legally do so along with all of the other Professional Land Surveyors in this state who choose that "legally sanctioned" method of identifying themselves.

[waterworks]

I have wondered the same thing as TlB. I've been surveying 27 years and fairly recently acquired my license. I was going to school for my surveying certificate at Rancho Santiago in the 80's and was given an article written by Curtis Brown for ACSM in 1961. He goes into much detail and gives many examples in the article about professional status. It is quite lengthy (7 pages) but I will put the quote that has stuck with me to this day. This is the last paragraph of the article.

"I started out with at thought and wish to close with the same thought; Professional stature is not gained by self-proclamation. Professional stature must be earned and can only be measured by what others think of us. If you want to find out if you are a professional man, ask what others think, don't ask yourself. If you want to be a professional man, earn that right."

Curtis M. Brown.

I agree except he didn't include the noun we use in English for the feminine, being one of those things myself. Understandable especially in 1961! I use Licensed Land Surveyor and hope my actions and ethics define me as a professional woman.

[pls7809]

Another thing is the law we operate under and defines the practice of land surveying is called the "Professional Land Surveyors' Act".

[rpost]

I too read the letter from Brown. It is one of the reasons I decided to abstain from the "P", that and the thousands of tags set and maps made by great old surveyors with LS XXXX. Although I am a new LS, I have wanted since I began the journey to licensure to be just that an LS. Most of the gentlemen that guided me throughout my career went by LS, so do I.

[PLS7393]

I have to agree that I have never seen the abbreviation PLS interpreted as "Please". If you want our profession to take a step backwards and not be considered a professional, that's your decision as a business owner. Surveyors is what we use to be called, until enough got tired of answering, "No we don't go door to door taking surveys", and the term "Land" was included to become a Land Surveyor. Land Surveyors also never were titled that, they were civil engineers with a PE, Prior to 1982.

Now as technology advances, and the Board seperated us from civil engineers, it is only appropriate to step forward into the 21st century and become more professional, and maybe we will eventually get to a level playing field for our profession as a PE. Some agencies do consider us equal to a civil engineer, but the public and some agencies still consider us as a technical field.

Do what you want, but I'm proud to call myself a Professional Land Surveyor! Now step up and do something professional for your profession, as I feel I have.

[E_Page]

Before I was licensed, I considered myself a Land Surveyor because that is what I've done for a living for pretty much my entire adult life. I knew at that point that I was not yet a Professioanl Land Surveyor because I had not yet proven that level of knowledge or competence by examination and had not yet gained the level of experience needed, or that I felt I needed to pass those examinations. But if somebody asked what I did for a living, my short answer was that I was a Land Surveyor.

No intent to deceive - if the conversation went in a direction requiring clarification, I would state that I was not licensed and so had to work under the authority of one who was. I never used the title Land Surveyor or the postscript LS in any correspondence.

For many years, as I said, I was a Land Surveyor by virtue of the fact that it was what I did. I aspired to be a Professional or Licensed Land Surveyor. No distinction between those titles. They mean the same thing. In some states I've worked in, the official title was, and maybe still is, Registered Land Surveyor, or even Registered Professional Land Surveyor (that was in MI, where I began my career).

It's a matter of personal preference. If you are hung up on it either way, you demean yourself as a professional, IMO.

Personally, I prefer to use the "P" because it reminds other professions that, yes, my vocation is also considered a profession, and those of us licesed to practice it are not a form of engineering technician. I most often use PLS, but on occasion also use LS.

If you don't want to use the "P", or if you do, I promise that I won't give it another thought. If you want to get worked up and think less of me because I do use the "P" most of the time, then I guess that speaks more to your level of professionalism than it does to mine. Get over it.

Now that we've allowed some to voice their opinion on the inconsequential, can we move on to something of substance?

[Ian Wilson]

Many years ago, Curt Brown gave me the same spiel about the "P". He had some rather colorful examples to prove his point.

Because of that, I refused to use the "P" until a couple of colleagues, whom I respect very much, gave me a page with a giant "P" printed on it. They told me that I had earned it.

Now, I use the "P" with great pride, having lived up to Mr. Brown's standard and my own.

[rpost]

I think it's actually a fairly interesting topic. I do agree that it doesn't matter either way, but I have always wondered why or why not. I don't think anyone here is trying to attack you Evan, I'm sure you are professional. I am certain, however, that no here intends to "demean (themselves) as a professional" by asking questions and giving opinions.

[E_Page]

I think it's actually a fairly interesting topic. I do agree that it doesn't matter either way, but I have always wondered why or why not. I don't think anyone here is trying to attack you Evan, I'm sure you are professional. I am certain, however, that no here intends to "demean (themselves) as a professional" by asking questions and giving opinions.

I'm not feeling attacked. More like "amused" that someone would see this as a significant issue. Certainly no one intends to demean themselves, but that is the effect of belittling others because they do not wear the title in the same manner that they themselves choose to.

If you have chosen to view the "P" as an additional title you must earn, then your setting and defining your own milestones. That's OK. I just read Ian's post and see that he did look on it as a milestone. And I agree that if there were only a handful of people who have fully earned the right to be called "Professional" over and above the right conferred by license, Ian would be one of those few.

Personally, I view professional respect as more of a scale than a milestone. The license was a milestone. It allowed me to refer to myself as a Professional or Licensed Surveyor as opposed to just a surveyor. The professional respect of my peers is something that has grown over time. I know that I have it to varying degrees from different people and personally don't feel the need to wait for someone to explicitly tell me that by my actions or behavior, I can now think of myself as a professional.

OK, I've spent more than enough time on this one. Have fun with it guys and gals.

[Lehmann]

Sean whats your e-mail info, post me at lehmannconsulting@sbcglobal.net

[TIB]

LS 8750 is correct, John Q Public does not Know the difference between PLS and LS. (probably because there is none). Nor do they care. All the public wants is a competent survey at a fair price. The only persons that this matters
to is the PLS

[cals6406]

The State legislating that all Land Surveyors are professionals is just too much like Congress telling me that all of the officers I servered under in the Air Force were gentlemen.

[Jim Frame]

PLS has always seemed a little foreign and contrived to me. I cut my teeth digging up pipes and rebars with brass disks marked "LS" wired to them, and I wanted to be able to set some of my own someday. "Land Surveyor" is what it says on my license. I do put a "P" word in front of that on my business card, but it's "Principal."

I don't begrudge the use of PLS by anyone, it's just not my personal preference.

.

[RMLAND]

is it any wonder why the public doesnt consider us professionals when there are those in our own profession who dont. to those who have a problem with being considered a "professional land surveyor", my dog has a license!

[Jim Frame]

"to those who have a problem with being considered a 'professional land surveyor', my dog has a license!"

Yes, but if he tried to survey I might retain a professional attorney to file a cease and desist motion. That might upset your dog enough that you'd have to take him to a professional veterinarian, and you might have to seek the counsel of a professional psychologist.

I don't have a problem being considered a professional, I just don't feel the need to get the word tatooed on my forehead.

.

[rpost]

"Professional Landscape Services"

PLS?

The public doesn't even know what professional means! That's what makes all this so funny.

[Anthony Maffia]

And I aspire to be a Poor Land Surveyor. :(