Unrecorded surveys

[MFORD]

How should unrecorded maps be documented on new Records of Surveyor (ROS), Final Maps (FM) or Parcel Maps (PM)? Should the surveyor who cites an unrecorded map as a basis for a boundary determination make that map available for inspection to anyone who requests it after the new map is filed?

Over the years I have encountered many instances on filed maps where an “unrecordedâ€￾ survey is cited as the basis for a boundary determination. In some instances these unrecorded surveys contradict boundary locations shown on filed maps. In most cases, not all, the filed map states the unrecorded survey is on file in the office of the map preparer. I myself have used this method to document the location of an unrecorded survey.

What is the responsibility and liability of the surveyor who cites unrecorded surveys as a basis for a boundary determination? Does the unrecorded survey now become a “quasiâ€￾ public record because of the reference on a filed map?

[bruce hall]

today I would think that a mylar copy could be made of the unrecorded map/survey and then submitted as sheet 3 of 3(or whatever number of sheets you got) of the current RS.

Dave Wooley did a RS like this referencing a survey here in the OC. The CS was more than agreeable to this procedure. I had never seen it done before, but it worked out really slick.

[RAM]

Here, A copy must be provided to the County Surveyor whom maintains a file of all unrecorded maps that have been referenced

[MFORD]

If I can take this to the next step, is their a need to require a copy of the unrecorded map be filed with the new ROS, PM or FM? I've had this discussion with colleagues in my area which have divergent views on the subject. Some feel there may be copyright issues with the unrecorded maps, while others favor the idea of recording a copy of the map. The local agencies cite lack of budget for keeping copies of unrecorded maps. If a "requirement" is the answer, what's the best vehicle to accomplish that end?

[Jim Frame]

"Some feel there may be copyright issues with the unrecorded maps"

Oh, how I wish this were the case (see the thread on copyright infringement). However, to the extent that a map shows only existing conditions (facts), there doesn't appear to be anything to which copyright applies.

The case law I've seen so far in support of that conclusion deals with topo maps. I'm still pondering (and researching) the concept that a boundary survey, which represents the result of a professional assessment of factual evidence, is subject to copyright protection.

.

[Peter Ehlert]

Mike: "Should the surveyor who cites an unrecorded map as a basis for a boundary determination make that map available for inspection to anyone who requests it after the new map is filed?"
Yes.

and make your best effort to get a copy of that map/document in some sort of secure publicly accessible location... preferably you would do that first and note the location on your new map/document.

[Anthony Maffia]

Has any California surveyor ever filed a copyright suit?

I like the idea of giving a copy to the cs.

[E_Page]

If an unrecorded boundary survey is adding something to a boundary resolution that cannot be discerned from existent recorded maps, then it seem like that map should have been recorded as well.

I'm not fully familiar with older versions of the PLSA, so that may not be the case, but it's my current impression.

If it should have been recorded, I don't know why whoever owns that map would want to press a copyright case. OK, you win the copyright. Royalties on that particular RS referencing the up until now unrecorded survey gets you a percentage of the revenues of that new survey. Let's say it was a pretty involved boundary and the surveyor charged $25000 for it. Royalties might be 10%(?).

But then BPELS gets involved, finding that the surveyor filing and winning the copyright case has several unrecorded boundary surveys in their records, and is now requiring said surveyor to file RSs on roughly half of them, CRs on another 30%, and has found the rest to have no such requirements. The surveyor also has to pay investigation costs and an administrative fine. Ouch!

So why is that surveyor concerned about copyright?


Back to the original questions, I agree with Peter. Do what you can to get it into some form of public record. Failing that, make it available to any who ask, as you have made it part of the record you've filed by reference.

[pls7809]

I'm pretty sure there was a thread on here is the last six months or so where a couple of RS's with attached unrecorded surveys were posted on here.

[pls7809]

Here is a previous thread with some samples attached therein, including the previously mention Dave Woolley's RS that he did with an attached unrecorded map.

http://www.californiasurveyors.org/clsa ... ded+survey

[Lee Hixson]

Dave...

The scanned map on Sheet 3 was hard to read, very hard, actually. The copy you had...was it a full-size, readable paper copy of the original? The practice up my way is to give a copy of the unrecorded map to the County Surveyor as part of the checking package, then place a note on the map being filed stating that a copy of the unrecorded survey is on file at the CS's office. I don't see the advantage of including it as a scanned image, especially if the readability suffers.

[Lee Hixson]

The illegibility was because Bluebeam didn't like the file for some reason. After opening Sh. 3 with Adobe it looked much better. Now I can see the value in having it on your map.

[pls7809]

As far as I know the Counties of LA and Orange don't really have a place to file old unrecorded surveys not done by their agency and they don't really want the responsibility to do so. Having it attached to the RS, puts it in the public record and in the case of these two counties allows it to be found by a geographical search of survey records on the counties' respective websites.

San Diego, I think, has a depository for old surveys like this, Private Surveys is what they call it I think, but don't know much about how they would handle this.

[Steve Martin]

I understand that San Diego County has decided that they do not have any budget to file Private Survey records anymore, so that example of forward thinking is no longer available.

[E_Page]

In El Dorado County, many of the unrecorded surveys of decades past are kept at the County's Historical Museum. I'm not fully certain as to the reason. It may be that the CS does not have the storage capacity and is unlikely to get any budget to index and house these records.

[Sunburned_Surveyor]

This was an excellent post. Thank you!

I will talk to my County Surveyor about recording the unrecorded survey as an additional sheet on my map or about other alternatives for making the unrecorded survey available because of this thread.

I've ran into a couple of filed maps with unrecorded references that were very difficult to track down.

On a related note, we always prepare a boundary analysis report on our boundary surveys. I try to include a statement on the face of my maps that says a report has been prepared and is available on request, and include a job number for reference.

There are things I can include in the report that you can't put on a filed survey map. I would always make this report, photos, and field notes from any boundary surveyor available to another surveyor that requested them, at no charge. I think this is good professional practice.

The Sunburned Surveyor

[E_Page]

I agree with Dave. If you have a survy where a report is worth writing an addition to filing the map, or would greatly aid in the interpretation of the map or the fact and decisions represented by it, write the report on the map. I call mine a Narrative, like they do in OR.

It is good practice to keep a written record, especially for complex surveys. I commend you for doing this as I think that most don't. If you are preparing it and expect that some surveyors may want it, then you see it as valuable for retracement, and if you're going to provide it for free, why not just place it on the map?