Recording Corner Records

[Ian Easton]

Would I be correct in my interpretaion of section 8773 of the LSA (Corner Records) that a City that performs it's own surveys could file Corner Records internally (commonly known as City Engineer's Tie Books) as a public record and not with the County unless it is a corner "established by the Survey of the Public Lands of the United States" which, by section 8773 has to be filed with the County.

[pls7809]

I agree with Steve that there appears to be no exemption for city surveyors in the LS Act. I know that the City of LA surveyors believe their CL tie notes are exempt from CR filing, but I'm not sure what the arguement is.

The city of Riverside was doing tie sheets in lieu of CR, but the Board forced them to file CR's according to the City's website.

http://wam.riversideca.gov/PWSurvey/hints_ties.asp

[E_Page]

I don't see any such exemption either. It plainly states filing with the CS (or County, not city, Engineer).

I believe LA is claiming exemption from the CR requirement because they were chartered prior to the 1st PLSA.

IMO, that's a ridiculous argument. Would that also mean that they are exempt from every other law enacted by the State since they were chartered? They are not a sovereign on par with the State are they?

[pls7809]

They require subdivision maps the same as any city or county agency and they were also chartered before the SMA.

[Ian Easton]

Interesting. Sec 8773 says SHALL file with the County for points establishedby the Survey of Public Land points, but says MAY for "property orners, property controlling corners, reference monuments, or accesories to a property corner". So does the Act when it says Public Land points, mean sec. corners, 1/4 corners, etc.only?

[E_Page]

?!?!?!?

You just pointed something out that has tweaked my understanding of when a CR is required. I'll have to research and ponder this awhile.

[pls7809]

8773.4. Corner record; filing; conditions; exemptions
(a) A corner record shall be signed by a licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer and stamped with his or her seal, or in the case of an agency of the United States government or the State of California the certificate may be signed by the chief of the survey party making the survey, setting forth his or her official title, prior to filing.
(b) A corner record need not be filed when:
(1) A corner record is on file and the corner is found as described in the existing corner record.
(2) All conditions of Section 8773 are complied with by proper notations on a record of survey map filed in compliance with the Professional Land Surveyors’ Act or a parcel or subdivision map, in compliance with the Subdivision Map Act.
(3) When the survey is a survey of a mobilehome park interior lot as defined in Section 18210 of the Health and Safety Code, provided that no subdivision map, official map, or record of survey has been previously filed for the interior lot or no conversion to residential ownership has occurred pursuant to Section 66428.1 of the Government Code.
(c) This section shall not apply to maps filed prior to January 1, 1974.

8771. Record of survey - monumentation
(a) Monuments set shall be sufficient in number and durability and efficiently placed so as not to be readily disturbed, to assure, together with monuments already existing, the perpetuation or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey.
(b) When monuments exist that control the location of subdivisions, tracts, boundaries, roads, streets, or highways, or provide horizontal or vertical survey control, the monuments shall be located and referenced by or under the direction of a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer prior to the time when any streets, highways, other rights-of-way, or easements are improved, constructed, reconstructed, maintained, resurfaced, or relocated, and a corner record or record of survey of the references shall be filed with the county surveyor. They shall be reset in the surface of the new construction, a suitable monument box placed thereon, or permanent witness monuments set to perpetuate their location if any monument could be destroyed, damaged, covered, or otherwise obliterated, and a corner record or record of survey filed with the county surveyor prior to the recording of a certificate of completion for the project. Sufficient controlling monuments shall be retained or replaced in their original positions to enable property, right-of-way and easement lines, property corners, and subdivision and tract boundaries to be reestablished without devious surveys necessarily originating on monuments differing from those that currently control the area. It shall be the responsibility of the governmental agency or others performing construction work to provide for the monumentation required by this section. It shall be the duty of every land surveyor or civil engineer to cooperate with the governmental agency in matters of maps, field notes, and other pertinent records. Monuments set to mark the limiting lines of highways, roads, streets or right-of-way or easement lines shall not be deemed adequate for this purpose unless specifically noted on the corner record or record of survey of the improvement works with direct ties in bearing or azimuth and distance between these and other monuments of record.
(c) The decision to file either the required corner record or a record of survey pursuant to subdivision (b) shall be at the election of the licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer submitting the document.

You have to consider 8771(b) also.

[pls7809]

When cities are doing ties and such for street repairs and construction, they should be either CR's or RS's per 8771(b). For new subdivisions, not entirely sure. Some cities require only city tie sheets. But the LS act never mentions filing with the city, everything is county.

[Ian Easton]

It looks like some of the wording for these two sections should be changed.

[pls7809]

More CR laws - in the Board Rules:

464. Corner Record.
(a) The corner record required by Section 8773 of the Code for the perpetuation of monuments shall contain the following information for each corner identified therein:....
(b) A corner record shall be filed for each public land survey corner which is found, reset, or used as control in any survey by a land surveyor or a civil engineer. Exceptions to this rule are identified in Section 8773.4 of the Code.
(d) A corner record may be filed for any property corner, property controlling corner, reference monument, or accessory to a property corner, together with reference to record information. Such corner record may show one or more property corners, property controlling corners, reference monuments, or accessories to property corners on a single corner record document so long as it is legible, clear, and understandable.
(e) When conducting a survey which is a retracement of lines shown on a subdivision map, official map, or a record of survey, where no material discrepancies with these records are found and where sufficient monumentation is found to establish the precise location of property corners thereon, a corner record may be filed in lieu of a record of survey for any property corners which are set or reset or found to be of a different character than indicated by prior records. Such corner records may show one or more property corners, property controlling corners, reference monuments or accessories to property corners on a single corner record document so long as it is legible, clear, and understandable.


In section (a) the CR is "required" for the perpetuation of monuments
In section (e) when surveying a line shown on previously recorded map (which includes many centerlines and intersections) and none of the 8762 items are met to require an sufficient monumentation exists to establish the corner or corners, a CR may be file in lieu of an RS (one or the other).

[pls7809]

The best way to do this is raise the issue with your chapter to bring to the CLSA quarterly board meetings. The legislative council will then take on the matter.

[subman]

In my opinion Centerline Tie Sheets and Corner Records are two seperate documents. Corner Records are a requirement of the PLS Act. Centerline Tie Sheets are a requirement of a local ordinance, usually the Subdivision Ordinance. The Subdivision Map Act calls for the final/parcel map to have sufficient durable monuments to conform to Section 8771 of the PLS Act so that another may retrace the survey. In addition, the surveyor shall set additional monuments, as required by local ordinance. This is where the requirement for centerline intersection monuments come in. They are usually defered till after the final/parcel map records and set after streets are paved.

Futhermore, local ordinance may require centerline ties (four usually, preferably tangent) to be set outside the asphalt pavement (in curb or sidewalk) to assist is pepetuating the location of the centerline intersection monument. Local ordinance generally states that the centerline tie sheets shall be filed with the City Engineer. A note for clarity: if any setting or resetting of the centerline intersection monument is done, that triggers a Corner Record. A proper Centerline Tie Sheet should show the centerline monument as "Found" and of the same character as that "to be set" monument shown on the final/parcel map. The centerline tie sheet should only show the installation of the Lead, tack & tag in the four corners of the curb returns.

The reality is, most cities in Los Angeles County don't want to maintain tie sheet indexes, so they have the surveyor do them on Corner Record forms and submit them to the County Surveyor to maintain.

[bruce hall]

as Subman. If the cities find the "record monument" at the centerline intersection, or whatever "record monument" they are finding, and just set ties to this record monument, the CR is not a requirement.

If the record monument is replaced with something new and different or found to be of something new and different, then a CR is required.

A CR or RS is required when "monuments exist blah blah blah" in 8771(b) prior to the "improvements blah, blah". This has to do with the construction or improvements and perpetuations of the monuments.

The only time that a CR or RS is not REQUIRED by the city is when nothing has changed regarding the "record monument", whether or not ties were set, or something real close to this.

So as long as nothing has changed (or might change), the cities can "tie" themselves into knots, if they so want to. And so can I.

[bruce hall]

in my brain it looks as though 8773 requires a corner record to be filed when these corners of the Public Lands, and their accessories are restored or USED AS CONTROL in any survey.......

Just the finding of these record Public Lands monuments and tieing them out doesn't trigger the CR. A survey is gotta be happening, not just finding the monument and then pulling or setting ties.

[E_Page]

§464(e) brings me back to my previous understanding. I feel much better now.

[Ian Easton]

I read the comments on the City of Riverside web site - interesting. I don't see a problem with a City filing a corner record in both places - the City AND the County. As long as the County gets theirs there's not a problem as far as I can see.

[Steve Martin]

LSA 8772 states "Any monument set by a licensed Surveyor or registered civil engineer to mark or reference..." must be tagged.

Are these City tie points tagged?

[Ian Easton]

LSA 8772 states "Any monument set by a licensed Surveyor or registered civil engineer to mark or reference..." must be tagged.

Are these City tie points tagged?

Yes, they have City tags on them.

[goodgps]

Quoted from Ryans post:

What does this really mean ?

(c) This section shall not apply to maps filed prior to January 1, 1974.

No Corner record needed for maps filed Prior the this date ?