Map v. monument

[T. S. Higgins]

I think Evan's point hinges entirely on the "If the homeowner is able to positively identify". When I was working in almost entirely rural areas, I found most homeowners, especially those over 50, knew their descriptions, had a copy on hand, and had at least a few times been out to walk the lines and view the monuments. It was considered part of the resonsibility of the landowner.

It's one of the reasons that we were able to so easily find monuments many times; we'd go with the old guy who remembered the old stone mound from when his father showed it to him, and could walk us right out "the old cattle fence" which is no longer there and find it, blazes and all.

In more urban areas, and with younger landowners, it's just not as common to have that kind of knowledge. The purchasing process usually doesn't even include an indication that you -should- read a legal description, and most people aren't sure of what it is or how to interpret it. The banks, real estate agent, and title company all said "This is the house", so it means they own everything within the fences, right?

I agree with Evan's assessment overall, but I do think it's important to note that many people don't even know why there is a pipe in the ground at all, let alone what a side tag is/means.

[Lee Hixson]

The need to "measure" is, I now think, almost always important. Decades ago, there were times that I would walk around with my metal detector and shovel, dig up points (with surveyor's caps), show them to the owner, and head to the next job.

I stopped doing that after one job in a rural portion of the Sierra Foothills where a guy had built a 1,200-foot long fence, straight from a point he found in the front, to another, similarly marked point in the back. He had hired me to do a parcel map on his 20-acre parcel a few months after he finished building the fence.

Little did he realize that his rear line was part of a much longer line making up the rear lines between country roads. He had found the rear corner of his neighbor on the opposite side of this rear line. It was 13 feet away from HIS corner. Twelve hundred feet of new fence had to be moved.

I myself, with detector and shovel only, could have made the same mistake!

[E_Page]

Tristan, very valid observations.

Lee, good thing you dropped that practice (there are some who still do it). As surveyors, we have a higher obligation which includes measuring not only to ensure that we are identifying the correct points, but to point out discrepancies between record and measured values and other issues.

In the case of the 1200' fence, the landowner was not knowledgeable of his corners and the monuments apparently were not uniquely identifiable unless one (surveyor or landowner) found both monuments 13' apart and knew how to read the map showing each. Had he found both and was able to relate them to the map, don't you think he should have had a reasonable expectation of being able to rely on them?

[LS_8750]

So you hold the monument and find later that the neighbor's kid moved it just because he wanted to try out his dad's sledge hammer?

I think the other pipes all fitting hold witness to the screwed up pipe being disturbed. I've seen pipes moved. I've seen pipes suddenly appear where none existed before, tagged and everything.

Read Tortilla Flat, Steinbeck. There are some loony people out there....

[E_Page]

So you hold the monument and find later that the neighbor's kid moved it just because he wanted to try out his dad's sledge hammer?

So why didn't you find this out from the neighbor prior to deciding to hold the monument? One of the points that have been made is that you need to find out as much as you can from the various landowners regarding their knowledge prior to making any decisions.

[Ben Lund]

Lee, Evan, and Clark in posts 376, 377, and 388 respectively have summed up my opinion on this particular situation.

[LS_8750]

Posts 373 and 374 have me chuckling.

Now I have an anomaly monument from a 1952 subdivision map, original and apparently undisturbed, 5.5 feet out of position, but near enough to angular ties that it was definately not pulled by kids and re-set.

I'm gonna hold it, just for fun. And watch generations of surveyors cringe and throw up their arms in dismay at the idea that "monuments control".

By the way, it is just a pipe in a weird rural mountain subdivision. And of course there is no evidence contrary to the position of the pipe in the ground. Except the original map!