My chainman accidentally ripped out the plastic cap marking a monument today and broke it in half (those stupid plastic caps are no good). I only used the point to find the pipe on my corner (rag tape/beeper). I'm not going to do any additional work to prove that this monument is in its correct location, but I think I should stick my tag on it and file a Corner Record. I am a bit worried that an unproven monument will have my tag. Any comments?
As a side note, does anyone else hate the yellow plastic caps that crack, break and fall out? I personally only use brass, even in 3/4" ip's.
TAG REMOVED...Ooops
-
rpost
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:40 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
TAG REMOVED...Ooops
Ryan Post, LS
ATC Design Group
Escondido, CA
ATC Design Group
Escondido, CA
-
Steve Martin
- Posts: 632
- Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:24 pm
- Location: Hayward
Not "Durable"
Plastic caps do not meet my definition of a durable monument. They melt away in a backcountry wildfire and even just a few years in the sun will make them unreadable, crack and fall apart.
I have worked on many road resurfacing and pipeline projects where we make every effort to preserve monuments, however we are not surveying surrounding property.
A statement on the Corner Record indicating that the purpose of said Corner Record is to preserve possible evidence only and no attempt was made to determine the relationship to property lines, or words to that effect, would be appropriate.
I have worked on many road resurfacing and pipeline projects where we make every effort to preserve monuments, however we are not surveying surrounding property.
A statement on the Corner Record indicating that the purpose of said Corner Record is to preserve possible evidence only and no attempt was made to determine the relationship to property lines, or words to that effect, would be appropriate.
Steve Martin, LS 7264
-
btaylor
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:33 pm
- Location: Foster City, CA
Just a comment on the plastic plugs. Recently, I have reluctantly moved on to 3/4" diameter rebar with aluminum caps because plastic plugs just do not cut it unless they are well shaded from the sun.
I prefer to set the monuments so they are up about 0.2-0.3', so in general the plastic caps are totally insufficient. I have found that my old method of pounding them in, while preserving the plug, is not serving the client.
I prefer to set the monuments so they are up about 0.2-0.3', so in general the plastic caps are totally insufficient. I have found that my old method of pounding them in, while preserving the plug, is not serving the client.
-
T. S. Higgins
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:08 pm
I'm a fan of rebar and aluminum caps; in Nova Scotia we were required to use survey markers; .75" rebar with a 3" cap, stamped with your LS#, name, and "Nova Scotia Survey Marker, Penalty for Removal".
It was an extra expense, but they held up, and there's no way you could mistake it for anything else.
Didn't stop people from hauling them out of the ground though.
It was an extra expense, but they held up, and there's no way you could mistake it for anything else.
Didn't stop people from hauling them out of the ground though.
Tristan S. Higgins, PLS
-
E_Page
- Posts: 2144
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:49 am
- Location: El Dorado County
If the CR clearly states the purpose (preseving evidence) and states that the position was not verified for correct location, it should be fine.
I've seen plastic caps well over 20 year old in good condition, but only in locations protected from the direct effect of the sun and the elements. Generally, I like to use brass rockcreted into a galvanized pipe or other durable base.
I don't know how many plastic caps I've seen that are faded and cracked so bad that they fall off at the slightest touch, or are so marred from digging or brush cutting tools so as to be completely illegible. While employed at an engineering company about 12 years ago, they ordered a box of 500 plastic caps with my LS# on them. I left that company not too much later (no, not because of the caps) and took them with me. I still have about 450 left and almost never use them. Last time I used some were for POLs a client wanted set between corner monuments in a wooded area.
Aluminun caps are better than plastic, but are held onto the rebar with a plastic insert. Wildfires will melt that insert just as they would a plastic cap, and occasionally those fires get hot enough to melt the aluminum. Barring a fire, they will outlast plastic by a long ways.
I've seen plastic caps well over 20 year old in good condition, but only in locations protected from the direct effect of the sun and the elements. Generally, I like to use brass rockcreted into a galvanized pipe or other durable base.
I don't know how many plastic caps I've seen that are faded and cracked so bad that they fall off at the slightest touch, or are so marred from digging or brush cutting tools so as to be completely illegible. While employed at an engineering company about 12 years ago, they ordered a box of 500 plastic caps with my LS# on them. I left that company not too much later (no, not because of the caps) and took them with me. I still have about 450 left and almost never use them. Last time I used some were for POLs a client wanted set between corner monuments in a wooded area.
Aluminun caps are better than plastic, but are held onto the rebar with a plastic insert. Wildfires will melt that insert just as they would a plastic cap, and occasionally those fires get hot enough to melt the aluminum. Barring a fire, they will outlast plastic by a long ways.
Evan Page, PLS
A Visiting Forum Essayist
A Visiting Forum Essayist
-
goodgps
- Posts: 644
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:32 pm
- Location: Modesto, Ca
May I,
I believe the question wasn't about durablilty of the tag material, but rather "what to do when a tag is accidentially destroyed or lost during monument recovery"
Tags . . .Schmags . . . I have knocked off plenty of brass tags that were affixed to the side or the top of the pipe or pin. they fall in the hole and get lost. Metal tops get mashed also.
SO !!! the fact is, STUFF happens.
1. If the original Surveyor is around, he may supply a new tag and you can replaced it onto the monument.
2. A note can simply be placed onthe map/plat etc, that the tag was destroyed and you accept the position and affix your tag to the monument.
OR . . . just a thought, the broked plastic tag can be glued or wired to the monument (if it is skimmed off, cut in half etc)
Remember, a tag made of frozen Jello may last a lifetime at the north pole, and a titanium tag can be destroyed handily by a backhoe.
P.S. source for the Jello Tags . . . .Bill Cosby ????
I believe the question wasn't about durablilty of the tag material, but rather "what to do when a tag is accidentially destroyed or lost during monument recovery"
Tags . . .Schmags . . . I have knocked off plenty of brass tags that were affixed to the side or the top of the pipe or pin. they fall in the hole and get lost. Metal tops get mashed also.
SO !!! the fact is, STUFF happens.
1. If the original Surveyor is around, he may supply a new tag and you can replaced it onto the monument.
2. A note can simply be placed onthe map/plat etc, that the tag was destroyed and you accept the position and affix your tag to the monument.
OR . . . just a thought, the broked plastic tag can be glued or wired to the monument (if it is skimmed off, cut in half etc)
Remember, a tag made of frozen Jello may last a lifetime at the north pole, and a titanium tag can be destroyed handily by a backhoe.
P.S. source for the Jello Tags . . . .Bill Cosby ????
-
TIB
- Posts: 160
- Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:56 pm
2 comments
1. don't hire rookies
2. you're an idiot
2. you're an idiot
-
Jim Frame
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:52 pm
- Location: Davis, CA
- Contact:
-
T. S. Higgins
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:08 pm
-
rpost
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:40 pm
- Location: San Diego, CA
-
land butcher
- Posts: 1615
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:26 pm
- Location: calif
[quote and a titanium tag can be destroyed handily by a backhoe.
[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of a newbie joke.
Regular chainman is sick and I have to take a rookie out to reflag section corners.
I send him off along a fence line and give him; a bottle of water, a lathe with flagging, a 1x2 hub and the following instructions. Follow the fence line and just over the 2nd ridge look for flagging and other evidence of the section corner. If you get lost just find a flat clear area, drive the hub into the ground stand the lathe next to it, then sit down and wait for a contractor to wipe it out and ask him for a ride.
[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of a newbie joke.
Regular chainman is sick and I have to take a rookie out to reflag section corners.
I send him off along a fence line and give him; a bottle of water, a lathe with flagging, a 1x2 hub and the following instructions. Follow the fence line and just over the 2nd ridge look for flagging and other evidence of the section corner. If you get lost just find a flat clear area, drive the hub into the ground stand the lathe next to it, then sit down and wait for a contractor to wipe it out and ask him for a ride.
-
bruce hall
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: huntington beach, orange county, california
Is the plastic cap the monument or the "tag"?
"Plastic caps do not meet my definition of a durable monument." See post number 2.
I thought that the monument had to be durable and then "any monument set.................................shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged with..................................."
The monument(iron pipe, spike, rebar) is supposed to be the durable thing. I can't remember my rules of grammer (although I am sure someone will enlightened me) but it seems to me that the permanently and visibly describe "marked" as well as "Tagged". A tag is an identifier. I have a tag on the back of my shirt that says "M, 100%cotton, Made in El Salvador." It is made out of cloth and is not permanent, but it can be visible depending how I wear my shirt.
So the plastic plug should probably fall under a definition of "not being permanently ......tagged". Picky Picky, I know, it's just a thought in my brain.
I thought that the monument had to be durable and then "any monument set.................................shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged with..................................."
The monument(iron pipe, spike, rebar) is supposed to be the durable thing. I can't remember my rules of grammer (although I am sure someone will enlightened me) but it seems to me that the permanently and visibly describe "marked" as well as "Tagged". A tag is an identifier. I have a tag on the back of my shirt that says "M, 100%cotton, Made in El Salvador." It is made out of cloth and is not permanent, but it can be visible depending how I wear my shirt.
So the plastic plug should probably fall under a definition of "not being permanently ......tagged". Picky Picky, I know, it's just a thought in my brain.
Bruce Hall Land Surveyor No. 4743
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
-
E_Page
- Posts: 2144
- Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:49 am
- Location: El Dorado County
The tag or cap set with the monnument is part of the monument. Plastic can be durable in some situations, and as has been pointed out, a metal cap can get completely smashed in others.
I think that we can all agree that a cap made of some kind of metal will, in almost all circumstances, be far more durable than a plastic one. Whether a brass tag wired to a pipe or bar is more or less durable that a securly fixed plastic cap is questionable, IMO. The tag may last longer, but is probably more prone to being knocked of because the cheap bailing wire most use will rust out after a few years and the discolored tag is then more likely to get lost in the dirt than a yellow cap.
I prefer brass and use it for most of my own work. The Board has not weighed in on the durability or lack thereof of plastic caps, and I doubt that it will. As such, it will remain a matter of professioanl judgment and personal preference if, when, and where one will use plastic caps.
BTW, do any of you know where one could find a definition of durability in the law? Does it need to last 1 year to be durable? 10? 100? Is there some list of materials considered by law to be durable? Is a wood stake durable? How many of us have found redwood hubs, or their remains 100 years after they were set? A few of us I'm sure.
I think that we can all agree that a cap made of some kind of metal will, in almost all circumstances, be far more durable than a plastic one. Whether a brass tag wired to a pipe or bar is more or less durable that a securly fixed plastic cap is questionable, IMO. The tag may last longer, but is probably more prone to being knocked of because the cheap bailing wire most use will rust out after a few years and the discolored tag is then more likely to get lost in the dirt than a yellow cap.
I prefer brass and use it for most of my own work. The Board has not weighed in on the durability or lack thereof of plastic caps, and I doubt that it will. As such, it will remain a matter of professioanl judgment and personal preference if, when, and where one will use plastic caps.
BTW, do any of you know where one could find a definition of durability in the law? Does it need to last 1 year to be durable? 10? 100? Is there some list of materials considered by law to be durable? Is a wood stake durable? How many of us have found redwood hubs, or their remains 100 years after they were set? A few of us I'm sure.
Evan Page, PLS
A Visiting Forum Essayist
A Visiting Forum Essayist
-
bruce hall
- Posts: 645
- Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:18 pm
- Location: huntington beach, orange county, california
I agree with you
Evan in that once the "marking" or "tag" is securely affixed to the monument, then I guess it is part of the monument, in a way kinda sorta. I mean they are stuck(cemented) together(in the case of a tagged pipe) or the tag is between the head of the spike and the pavement.
Near as I can tell the reason for tagging or visibly and permanently marking the monument is is so that the monument can be identified.
It just doesn't make sense in my brain that the identifier is the monument. As to durablility, gosh I don't know what that means. I should pull out the dictionary.
Near as I can tell the reason for tagging or visibly and permanently marking the monument is is so that the monument can be identified.
It just doesn't make sense in my brain that the identifier is the monument. As to durablility, gosh I don't know what that means. I should pull out the dictionary.
Bruce Hall Land Surveyor No. 4743
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
5732 Middlecoff Drive
Huntington Beach, Ca. 92649
714 840 4380
-
land butcher
- Posts: 1615
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:26 pm
- Location: calif
Durability I think it's similar to the warranty that states "Lifetime warranty for the life of the product" :)
I think 2 of the biggest problems with tag durability in iron pipes is
1. using a regular nail instead of a brass nail. The regular nails rust away.
2. using a pipe I.D. smaller than the tag putting the tag on the top were it can easily be chipped off.
Then there is the development in N. CA where my cousins live. The PCs are marked with rebar and a tag wired on with thin baling wire. Not many left as lake front lots have the lake side corners in the water and it snows up there.
Nothing lasts along the beach in the sand - salt water eats everything but plastic.
I think 2 of the biggest problems with tag durability in iron pipes is
1. using a regular nail instead of a brass nail. The regular nails rust away.
2. using a pipe I.D. smaller than the tag putting the tag on the top were it can easily be chipped off.
Then there is the development in N. CA where my cousins live. The PCs are marked with rebar and a tag wired on with thin baling wire. Not many left as lake front lots have the lake side corners in the water and it snows up there.
Nothing lasts along the beach in the sand - salt water eats everything but plastic.