Civil Plans

[Gromatici]

Can someone refresh me on the rules regarding preparing grading and drainage plans if you're an LS? I believe you don't need to be a Civil if there is less than __________ cubit feet and no___________?

Thanks,

[PE_PLS]

I don't think the law allows any LS, acting in their professional capacity, to do what falls into the realm of professional civil engineering.

On the other hand, many jurisdictions allow a layman to do minor grading/drainage plans, so just like anyone else, an LS could do these plans (though there is no reason to put your LS stamp on them). I would suggest you to check your local jurisdiction to see what requirements are in place. Oftentimes I see architectural plans showing a drainage plan that was done by the architect or designer.

A land surveying firm can legally enter into a contract to provide civil engineering services that are incidental to their land surveying, provided they are done under the direction of a licensed PE.

[land butcher]

Many States allow surveyors to do grading plans but not CA.

architects are able to do grading plans because there are more architects than engineers in CA.

[subman]

The conditions that trigger grading plans to be prepared by a licensed civil are explained below. However, any type of grading that requires hydrology or hydraulic calculations to size drainage devices will trigger the need to involve a licensed civil engineer.

J104.2.1 Grading Designation. Grading in excess of 5,000 cubic yards (3825 m3) or that is proposed to support any structure shall be designated as “engineered grading.â€￾ All engineered grading shall be performed in accordance with an approved grading plan and specifications prepared by a civil engineer, unless otherwise required by the Building Official.
Grading involving less than 5,000 cubic yards (3825 m3) and that will not support any structure shall be designated “regular gradingâ€￾ unless the permittee chooses to have the grading be designated as engineered grading, or the Building Official determines that, due to the existence of special conditions or unusual hazards, the grading should be designated as engineered grading. (Ord. 2007-0108 § 33 (part), 2007.)

J104.2.2 Regular Grading Requirements. In addition to the provisions of Section 106, and Section 104.2, an application for a regular grading permit shall be accompanied by two sets of plans in sufficient clarity to indicate the nature and extent of the work. The plans shall give the location of the work, the name of the owner, and the name of the person who prepared the plan. The plan shall include the following information:
1. General vicinity of the proposed site.
2. Limits and depths of cut and fill.
3. Location of any buildings or structures where work is to be performed, and the location of any buildings or structures within 15 feet (4.6 m) of the proposed grading.
4. Contours, flow areas, elevations, or slopes which define existing and proposed drainage patterns.
5. Storm water provisions in accordance with the requirements of Section 106.4.3 of this code. See Section J111 for specific requirements. (Ord. 2007-0108 § 33 (part), 2007.)

J104.2.3 Engineered Grading Requirements. In addition to the provisions of Section 106, and Section J104.2, an application for a permit for engineered grading shall be accompanied by four sets of plans and specifications, and supporting data consisting of a soils engineering report and engineering geology report.
Specifications shall contain information covering construction and material requirements. Plans shall be drawn to scale upon substantial paper or cloth and shall be of sufficient clarity to indicate the nature and extent of the work proposed and shall show in detail that the proposed work will conform to the provisions of this code and all relevant laws, ordinances, rules, and regulations. The first sheet of each set of plans shall depict the location of the proposed work, the name and address of the owner, and the person by whom they were prepared.
The plans shall include or be accompanied by the following information:
1. General vicinity of the proposed site.
2. Property limits and accurate contours of existing ground and details of terrain and area drainage.
3. Limiting dimensions, elevations, or finish contours to be achieved by the grading, proposed drainage channels, and related construction.
4. Detailed plans of all surface and subsurface drainage devices, walls, cribbing, dams and other protective devices to be constructed with, or as a part of, the proposed work. A map showing the drainage area and the estimated runoff of the area served by any drains shall also be provided.
5. Location of any existing or proposed buildings or structures located on the property on which the work is to be performed and the location of any buildings or structures on adjacent properties that are within 15 feet (4.6 m) of the property or that may be affected by the proposed grading operations.
6. Recommendations in the soils engineering report and the engineering geology report shall be incorporated into the grading plans or specifications. When approved by the Building Official, specific recommendations contained in the soils engineering report and the engineering geology report, that are applicable to grading, may be included by reference.
7. The dates of the soils engineering and engineering geology reports together with the names, addresses, and phone numbers of the firms or individuals who prepared the reports.
8. A statement of the quantities of material to be excavated and/or filled. Earth work quantities shall include quantities for geotechnical and geological remediation. In addition, a statement of the quantities of material to be imported or exported from the site.
9. A statement of the estimated starting and completion dates for proposed work.
10. A statement signed by the owner, acknowledging that a field engineer, soils engineer and engineering geologist, when appropriate, will be employed to perform the services required by this code, when the Building Official requires that such professional persons be so employed. These acknowledgments shall be on a form furnished by the Building Official.
11. Storm water provisions are required to be shown on the grading plan in accordance with the requirement of Section 106.4.3 of the code. See Section J111 for specific requirements.
12. A drainage plan for those portions of property proposed to be utilized as a building site (building pad), including elevations of floors with respect to finish site grade and locations of proposed stoops, slabs and fences that may affect drainage.
13. Location and type of any proposed private sewage disposal system, including the location of the expansion area.
14. Location of existing and proposed utilities, drainage facilities, and recorded public and private easements.
15. Location of all recorded floodways as established by Chapter 11.60 of Title 11 of the Los Angeles County Code.
16. Location of all Special Flood Hazard Areas as designated and defined in Title 44, Code of Federal Regulations. (Ord. 2007-0108 § 33 (part), 2007.)

The following grading can be done without the need for a grading plan and permit. This may be the thresholds you have in mind Eric:

8. An excavation that does not exceed 50 cubic yards (38.3 m3) and complies with one of the following conditions:
(a) Is less than 2 feet (0.6 m) in depth.
(b) Does not create a cut slope greater than 5 feet (1.5 m) measured vertically upward from the cut surface to the surface of the natural grade and is not steeper than 2 units horizontal to 1 unit vertical (50 percent slope).
9. A fill not intended to support a structure, that does not obstruct a drainage course and complies with one of the following conditions:
(a) Is less than 1 foot (0.3 m) in depth and is placed on natural terrain with a slope flatter than 5 units horizontal to 1 unit vertical (20 percent slope).
(b) Is less than 3 feet (0.9 m) in depth at its deepest point measured vertically upward from natural grade to the surface of the fill, does not exceed 50 cubic yards, and creates a fill slope no steeper than 2 units horizontal to 1 unit vertical (50 percent slope).
(c) Is less than 5 feet (1.5 m) in depth at its deepest point measured vertically upward from natural grade to the surface of the fill, does not exceed 20 cubic yards, and creates a fill slope no steeper than 2 units horizontal to 1 unit vertical (50 percent slope).

[Anthony Maffia]

Can an LS sign a TM that shows future/planned works (utility stubs, pad grades, minor grading)? I've had a few friends argue to me that they can, but I don't recall the details. (And I mean Tentative Map, not improvement plans in any way or sort.)

[subman]

In Los Angeles County, a Tentative Map must be prepared by a licensed civil or a licensed surveyor per County Ordinance.

[pls7809]

If we are preparing a TM here at work, we usually have the RCE and LS both sign the tentative map, if it is showing elements of each discipline - and they usually are.

[E_Page]

El Dorado County used to allow grading plans through w/o a CE's review if it involved less than 500 cy. This was to allow landowners to do minor design work on their own property in keeping with state law.

Although some surveyors and "drafting services" have charged for the service of preparing minor grading plans, IMO, that is at least technically a violation of the PLSA and the Engineer's Act. Preparing such a plan as a landowner falls under the leandowner expemption. Charging for it is presenting yourself as a qualified consultant and therefore constitutes the practice of engineering. Many surveyors may be practically competent to do so by knowledge but not legally qualified to do so.

[Gromatici]

If it's a single family residence, the County allows for "designers" to submit "minor" grading plans. I'm trying to nail down what qualifies as "minor" and some of you have been very specific. I'm not tying to go out and attempt to be a "designer" but I do like to know what the limits are since I can be informed and inform my client should he need a C.E. for something OR NOT.

It's all about educating yourself but I guess some of you might feel the need to police each other.

Anyway, I'm believe the BPELS actually has something on it in their "consumer handout" or something.

[LS_8750]

Drainage is where non-RCEs gets tripped up. Every time. If you are comfortable with local ordinances for stormwater control, then go ahead. But even the simplest site at first glance can be a nightmare.

I get a lot of people coming to me post plan check, not a pretty site for them when I give a price and a time frame.

Cheers.

[Ian Wilson]

In Eric's posts, I read "I'm not trying to go out and attempt to be a "designer" but I do like to know what the limits are since I can be informed and inform my client should he need a C.E. for something OR NOT."

To me, that meant that Eric wasn't trying to figure out whether he could tap into a new income stream. I just figured that he was trying to stay...oh, I don't know...informed(?)...to be able to help his clients out. I took that to mean that he was looking to point out that above a certain volume or on certain projects, his clients should deal with...(just guessing here)...a civil engineer rather than a "draftsman".

Of course, that's just my take and interpretation of Eric's posts.

.

[LS_8750]

Eric, I did not want to come off as a nay sayer.

When you distill Ian and Woodcutters last comments, the best advice to your client is the CE referal. Surely Santa Barbara County for example has some stringent stormwater control criteria given its annual rainfall and potential for disaster. Out in say 29 Palms you might not need a CE for simple grading projects.

I've done architectural plans for my own projects and gotten hammered during plan check even with ample sets of arch plans laying around that I was able to sample from.

Cheers!

[Gromatici]

Finally someone who reads the whole post! Thank you Ian! Believe it or not I've seen multi-million dollar single family homes where the "designer" did the grading plan!

As long as they aren't violating any laws, then I'm under no obligation to report it or make a fuss. That's all I"m trying to get at. What does the law say?

By-the-way, I used to do grading plans for a company I worked for, with C.E. review, and did a lot of volunteer work doing grading and drainage plans that then got turned over to a C.E. to finalize.

However, I think there is a tendancy for the nervous types on this board to jump to conclusions and try to baby-sit others. It really makes it less professional that you think it might. I can gaurantee you that I'm NOT going to do anything I don't feel that I can do or don't have experience in.

I used to know what the local ordinace was, so I've got to hunt that down.

[E_Page]

I read "Can someone refresh me on the rules regarding preparing grading and drainage plans if you're an LS?"

Is this not asking what level of grading plan an LS can provide for a client?

I don't think that my previous answer was a nervous baby sitting answer, but a factual one. State law does not permit you to provide design services, regardless of whether the local agency considers them minor or not. §8728 is pretty clear on that point. The exemptions provided under the law (§§6737, 6737.3, 6739, 6740, 6741, 6742, 6744, 6745, 6746, 6746.1, and 6747) provide for landowners doing their own work and for specific other groups, all under specific conditions, doing certain functions otherwise covered under the definition of the practice of civil engineering. Surveyors have no such exemption (unless they incidently fall into one of the other groups).

These expemptions do not allow for unlicensed "designers", drafting services, or other non-CEs to provide these services for landowners either. The landowners have the option of doing their own design or hiring a licensed CE, regardless of whether the project is considered "minor".

§8726.1 provides that an LS can offer such services, provided that they are performed by or under the direction of a CE. Again, pretty clear. It does not allow the surveyor to provide these services independent of CE review.

Local ordinance may include provisions more stringent than those provided in State law, it may not be read to weaken State law.


So bottom line:

If you are concerned about other, non-CEs performing design work as consultants, the answer is that, yes, if they are offering and providing these services for a fee, they are in violation. Period!

Whether or not you report them is up to you. Questions to ask yourself may be 1) Is the Board likely to do anything of consequence (check past Board actions and ask around among other professionals for history on this), 2) Do you have adequate information for the Board to proceed on - plans, contracts, advertisements, etc., 3) Have any safety issues arisen from this practice that you are aware of or do you see any such issues as imminent?, 4) have you run this by your local PPC to get their take on the generic issue? It may be that someone locally has already fought this battle and gotten nowhere. It may take a significant design failure causing serious property damage or injury to get local and/or state authorities to provide any meaningful action.

If you are asking about how much service you want to provide to your clients, I suggest that you have in place a relationship with a CE to review any design you are competent to design and make sure that you have that review done on each and every one, regardless of any local definition of a "minor" project. That would be in keeping with the law and may serve your clients well.

Otherwise, if you are trying to avoid the cost of a CE for your client and feel technically competent to provide these "minor" grading plans, then go right ahead. Others are already doing them and the county is accepting them without question. It's very unlikely that anyone will turn you in unless you screw up or otherwise have a disgruntled client, so Board involvement is minimal at best. Just don't delude yourself that because the local agency is good with it that you are not in violation of State law. (This statement is not intended to advocate illegal practice)

[Gromatici]

Thank you subman for your informative answer.