No license required?

7702 · Post by **7702** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:32 pm

Anyone care to comment as to whether this type of business is in violation of the PLS Act?

http://www.fielddata.biz/Serv_surveying.html

Thank you

subman · Post by **subman** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:02 pm

I would think at the very least they would need a licensed civil engineer with subject matter expertise as a partner of the company (not a strategic partner whatever that is, a consultant??) if none of the topographic work is tied to boundaries. Otherwise it would appear to be a high tech survey crew for hire.

Brian Christensen · Post by **Brian Christensen** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:03 pm

I noticed on the "About EDS" page of the site, it says "All surveys (Bathymetric) are conducted with PLS oversight."

CA B & P 8704: Practice of Land Surveying

Any person practices land surveying when he professes to be a
land surveyor or is in responsible charge of land surveying work.

Doesn't say anything about "Underwater Land Surveying", so it must be O.K.

CA B & P 872: Land Surveying Defined

(b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth's
surface, or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the
surface of the earth by applying the principles of mathematics or
photogrammetry.

(f) Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter,
geodetic surveying means performing surveys, in which account is
taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or
predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects
thereon or related thereto, geodetic control points, monuments, or
stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for stating the
position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or
stations by California Coordinate System coordinates.

(g) Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or
document prepared or furnished in connection with any one or more of
the functions described in subdivisions (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f).

(n) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured
survey data.

Well, bathymetric surveying pretty much falls under the above described practice of LAND SURVEYING.

scarpa · Post by **scarpa** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:28 am

The EDS website does state, "Each project benchmark is set by Thomas Tucker PLS 4460."

I ASSUME his responsibilities cover more than just setting benchmarks, but needless to say there is always more to the story. (where is that darn sarcasm font?)

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:39 pm

Just ask the Board for a copy of their organizational record form. This form states the name of the person who is in responsible charge for the firms activities that require a licensee to perform that work. For this to be kosher, Mr Thomas and/or Mr Leventhal must appear on the firm's organizational record or some other licensee. It is pretty pathetic that on the page listing KEY PERSONNEL NOT A SINGLE LICENSEE IS LISTED. I suppose having a license is not KEY to their line of work, or so they think. did I miss any of the key people are licensees?

surveysays · Post by **surveysays** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:51 pm

I saw a job posting from a company in Long Beach that was looking for an as-built surveyor with their own equipment nonetheless. They claimed because they were doing landscaping / architectural maps not tied to any property lines they were not doing “surveying”.

From reading the law, I kinda tend to disagree with that assessment. But then it seems anyone even someone just taping off certain stuff so they know where it is in relation to other stuff would in a strict sense be land surveying.

Also I applied for a entry level GPS job in Bakersfield. They claimed it was GIS work and not land surveying without a licence. But it involved locating oil field related infrastructure and then mapping the stuff. I didn’t get the job (over qualified) but I have a feeling they are really performing land surveying.

surveysays · Post by **surveysays** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:52 pm

Double post.. Crazy stuff.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:49 pm

I wonder what it will take for board intervention?

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:11 pm

There could be a violation here. I can assure you that if no one follows up on this and there is in fact a violation,nothing will happen. Gotta follow up, that's all there is too it.

Jim Frame · Post by **Jim Frame** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:08 pm

In 2003 I made the claim in an enforcement case that hydrographic surveying constitutes regulated activity. I don't know on what basis the case was settled, but I can't find any record of sanctions imposed upon the respondent.

Historically, hydro firms have been free to practice without a surveyor's license. That would appear to be the case still.

.

Brian Christensen · Post by **Brian Christensen** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:53 pm

Mr. Reese-

Thank you for your post. This opinion letter is golden! Very nice Ric!

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:02 pm

Quite telling are the large letters depicted on the side of the EDS launch shown under the surveying tab on their website

The CHP uses "Survey Party" signs at their roving vehicle emissions compliance check points. When stopped at one of these check points your participation is voluntary but the CHP does not volunteer that information. But obviously the State of CA has a very loose interpretation of "Survey".

Jim Frame · Post by **Jim Frame** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:34 pm

I read Ric's letter with interest, and would love to know whether or not this view has been applied successfully in any enforcement actions.

.

7702 · Post by **7702** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:42 pm

Me too! I kinda figured Mr. Frame would be keeping a close watch on this one. : )

Many thanks to those who have commented thus far. And special thanks to Mr. Reese for providing Ric's letter.

I, too, have an opinion on the original topic concerning bathymetric surveying, but due to the nature of my current employment, its probably best that I exercise a bit of discretion.

Ian Wilson · Post by **Ian Wilson** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:25 am

Outstanding letter, Ric!

Now, we just need one to illucidate the practice of such data collection ABOVE the water's surface... (...just saying', Ric...written request on it's way...)

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:11 pm

At one time all that forensic and accident scene work was done by licensed surveyors, then the survey equipment sellers moved into selling EDMs to police depts with the "anyone can do it" sales pitch.

I would think a good attorney could xexamine a unlicensed cop's topo right into "he has no clue as to what he is doing".

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:14 am

"Sir when was the last time this instrument was calibrated? Sir what is the accuracy of your instrument? Sir what was the basis of your control?" .....
nuf said

MFORD · Post by **MFORD** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:43 am

As far as Mike Bobbit Assoc. is concerned, he and his company are without a doubt engaged in the practice of land surveying. I know Mike personally and have advised him on several occasions of his violations of the PLS Act. Frankly he doesnâ€™t give a damn what the land surveying community thinks of his operations. He hides behind the guise of GIS and he is collecting GIS data related to the vineyard and wine production industries.

He started his company in about 1998 using 30m dtm data taken from internet sources to produce contour mapping of vineyards in Napa and Sonoma Counties. He has since grown his company into a full blown (GIS) â€œsurveyingâ€ operation offering mapping, analysis and recommendations on best vineyard management practices based on LAT/LON, slope aspect, sun angle, etc.

I donâ€™t know his current capabilities as far as accuracies go. In the beginning he was using meter accuracy GIS mapping grade equipment. I suspect his equipment is more advanced these days. He lists as his clients some of the biggest wineries in California.

Unfortunately BPELS-G has a history of turning a blind eye on these types of operations. On two separate occasions I have personally reported one company in my area, Map Making Systems, for doing what Mike Bobbit Assoc. does except on a smaller scale. Both complaints were dismissed because the company claimed to be providing â€œlandscape topographic mapping ,â€ which is an exception in the PLS Act. Never mind neither of these companies have a licensed professional of any kind on staff.

These types of operations are able to thrive partly because most county building departments donâ€™t require topographic base mapping be signed by a LS or CE (at least in my area, Marin county being the one exception I know of). Sonoma County says the requirement would put an undue expense burden on the applicant and allows the applicant to do his own survey and use it for design purposes. They donâ€™t question the applicantâ€™s ability or expertise in producing the map.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:33 am

Something that ought to happen is that complaints ought to be filed for the practice of representing "approximate boundary lines" or "boundary lines" when those lines have not been derive under the direction of a person who is capable of being in responsible charge for such work. Cities and counties can be educated on the state law requirements with respect to boundary surveying. This is up to us to do. The "Landscape architect" exception is in place because those individuals ARE licensed!
I am surprised the Board does not stand by the fact that the spirit of the law. HAVING TO BE LICENSED IN ORDER TO OFFER SERVICES, means I think being able to act as responsible charge YOURSELF, or have as an owner, or an employee of the firm that is offering services,advertising,that can act as responsible charge and who appears on their organizational form stating as much and filed with the board.

If that is not the rule then we ought to make it the rule and get rid of the loopholes.

99% of the boundary problems we have today result from generations of complaining about the cost of surveying and efforts resorted to in order avoid paying the true cost of a proper survey.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:16 pm

Mark, the board is only going to address the complaints that are brought to their attention. they are not mind readers. If you see something, that is perhaps is a violation bring it to their attention. This does not mean that any and every issue brought to their attention will result in action that suits the likings of the person raising the issue.

It is UP TO YOU.

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:16 pm

If the board were aware of the fact that NON LICENSED individuals are making representations to APPROXIMATE BOUNDARY LINES, then they would not remain silent.

I suppose that anypne can capture USGS DEM data and a create vineyard layout, BUT if you are creating topographic data anew, then you have to have a license for that or be a landscape architect or working under the direction of someone licensed and capable of exercisng control as responsible charge for that type of service.

shaunb · Post by **shaunb** » Fri May 11, 2012 12:04 pm

sorry to bring up a oldish thread, but this one in particular caught my attention.

I'd read the letter from Mr. Moore and while its not quite the same situation as EDS, it is mentioned in the his letter.

My question pertains to whether or not a RCE can perform these surveys.

Looking at section 6731 and 6731.1 wouldn't they be able to perform hydro surveys under their direction? http://www.pels.ca.gov/licensees/pe_act.pdf (pages 9 and 10)

If not, what is section 6731.1(b) talking about then?

6731. Civil engineering defined
Civil engineering embraces the following studies or activities in connection with fixed works for irrigation, drainage, waterpower, water supply, flood control, inland waterways, harbors, municipal improvements, railroads, highways, tunnels, airports and airways, purification of water, sewerage, refuse disposal, foundations, grading, framed and homogeneous structures, buildings, or bridges:
(a) The economics of, the use and design of, materials of construction and the determination of their physical qualities.
(b) The supervision of the construction of engineering structures.
(c) The investigation of the laws, phenomena and forces of nature.
(d) Appraisals or valuations.
(e) The preparation or submission of designs, plans and specifications and engineering reports.
(f) Coordination of the work of professional, technical, or special consultants.
(g) Creation, preparation, or modification of electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a) through (f).
Civil engineering also includes city and regional planning insofar as any of the above features are concerned therein.
Civil engineers registered prior to January 1, 1982, shall be authorized to practice all land surveying as defined in Chapter 15 (commencing with Section 8700) of Division 3.
[NOTE: The last registration number issued to a civil engineer registered before January 1, 1982 was 33,965.]

6731.1. Civil engineering; additional authority
Civil engineering also includes the practice or offer to practice, either in a public or private capacity, all of the following:
(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731.
(b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earthâ€™s surface or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry.
(c) Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a) and (b).
(d) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data pursuant to subdivisions (a), (b), and (c).

California Surveyors Forums

No license required?

No license required?

"what about these guys?"

No Mr Woodcutter