ENGINEER finds Property Corners (Monuments) is he Land Surveying?

[BAlexander]

Dear Professoinals,
I am a veteran Civil Engineer but just shy of the majic 1982 date. I have always had a direct relationship with a LS throughout my career but in the recent recession the relationship is usually project by project.

I was just cited by the Calif Board for surveying without proper license. I was in a rural area where property corners had been set by a LS as a part of a Parcel Map. The Owner wanted me to help find his corners and he feared some were missing. Also he wanted a fence staked out in an area where the hills were too severe to pull a string line.

While merely looking for the existing property corners the neighbor complained to the board (since I stepped onto about a foot of their property). They cited me for practicing Land Surveying. Oddly enough I did discover one pin missing and was planning to call a local LS to do a pin replacement but never got the chance.

All I was doing is looking for corners - Do you consider this Practicing Land Surveying? Please remember that the law allows Civils to solicitate for Land Surveying as long as the work is done under the respisible charge of a LS. Also Civils are allowed to stake features as designed - Roads, houses, fences etc.... PLEASE COMMENT

[land butcher]

I have known pre 82 CEs to sign off on surveys done by non licensed surveyors and no one was cited.
So in light of that it's my humble opinion that you could set that missing corner if you had a licensed surveyor to sign your corner record.
And in this case you were reconning a job to determine what work needed to be done.
I find you being cited long after the fact interesting as I have reported surveyors establishing boundary lines for residential construction and not filing a map because they set cnails in the street and alley on PL prod and "did not set any property corners". The boards response would have required me to misrepresent myself to get the evidence they wanted.

[Peter Ehlert]

Nope, that is not Surveying.
But I suppose the complainer had a very different spin on what he saw or it would not have gone as far as a citation. Good Luck.

[cals6406]

A licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer establishes, and is subject to the record of survey filing requirements, when he or she represents beyond reasonable doubt or dispute the location, relocation, establishment, reestablishment or retracement of a boundary or property line to another party pursuant to the provisions of Section 8762 of the (PLSA).

You performed a field survey, located a surveyor's monument and represented that monument to another party as a boundary corner. You were surveying.
Did you verify the monument location by checking against other monuments?
That's surveying. If you didn't, how do you know the monument is in it's original position?

[shaunb]

No offense woodcutter, but how is reconing a job "surveying"?

Merely using your eyes and looking for a property corner that can be seen if you look in the right place is only to be done by a PLS?


He simply found what the property owner could have found on his own.


Now, if he has recommended to the property owner "this is your boundary, I'm sure of it, go build your fence and any other improvements" that is establishing a boundary and is surveying and outside of the RCE realm.

[Jim Frame]

All I was doing is looking for corners - Do you consider this Practicing Land Surveying?

If you were wandering around on your own time looking for corners, no. If you were being paid to do so, yes.

The key is whether or not you were under contract, or could reasonably have expected a contract to be made in the future, to identify property corners for the benefit of another party.

If you really want informed opinions, post a copy of the BPELSG complaint and supporting documents. The devil is always in the details.

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[E_Page]

You can identify a survey monument, but you cannot represent to anyone that it marks a corner. If your Scope of Services included identifying (or finding) the property corners, then it's a clear violation. If you were simply performing recon prior to being under contract, it's a little iffy.

If you represented with certainty to the client or adjoiner that any particular monument found was a parcel corner (or was any other point shown on the record map), then you crossed the line. If you were on recon and said something to the effect "It looks like this may be a corner, but I'm going to have my surveyor verify it", or if you were able to say "My surveyor has already verified your boundary and told me that the irons that are here are all good, so this is [refer to map] corner", then you would be in the clear, IMO. Anything between those is gray area and other details could swing it either way.

It may seem like you should be able to head out to the field, map in hand and identify particular mons and be able to state with a reasonable degree of certainty that you've identified a corner. You may even be competent to do so by experience and training. But without the proper license, you are not legally competent to do so.

I am, by experience and training, fully competent to design roadways, storm and water systems, and simple retaining walls. Unless there are significant complexities, my design would be just as good as any engineer's. But that does not mean I should do it. In fact, since I am not licensed to, I shouldn't do any of that unless working under the direction of a PE.

Nor would I make any representations to a client or anyone else as to the appropriateness of a particular design in a way that it appears that I am relying on my own knowledge and offering a professional opinion. When asked, my typical reply is something like "Alexander signed these plans, I can relay your questions to him or you can contact him directly."

Or often, I will look at the client/contractor's concern to see if I see a problem. I may reply "Your right, it looks like there is a problem here..." or "I don't see a problem here..." and I add the other half, and this is the important part when it comes to implied/inferred representations "... But I'm not a licensed engineer, so if you're really concerned about this, let's call Alexander and ask him."


Here's the other important thing to consider when answering questions within the practice of a related profession: Going back to my ability to design certain fixed works where there are not significant complications in play... Yes, I am competent by experience & training to create a workable design, but I am not fully competent to recognize all of the potential complications a site may present or, all of the regulations & ordinances that might come into play.

Are you aware of all the factors that might come into play that would cause a surveyor to find that a particular monument is not at the corner that you think it marks?

I'm a competent engineering tech, but recognize that I'm not an engineering professional. You may be a competent boundary survey tech, but are not a boundary survey professional, and need to recognize that. It's one of the reasons we have separate licenses, and one of the reasons this portion of surveying was separated from the CE's practice authority.

The law was not changed for the reason of protecting the "turf" or job security of surveyors, it was because there is an entirely different level of knowledge required to competently practice those portions of LS practice, and probably that many engineers don't recognize that fact or refuse to recognize it.


If you were on recon and made a "safe" or qualified representation as I described above, ask for an informal hearing so you can explain to Board staff. If they are satisfied that you did not make any definite representations and that you are now fully educated as to the limit of your survey authority, they may dismiss the citation. The philosophy of most of the decisionmakers there is that they would rather achieve compliance and education than hand down penalties on borderline cases.

If you had a Scope of Services in place that said anything to the effect that you would find the corners and stake fence to be built along the boundaries, and you have nothing to indicate that you had an LS already lined up to verify the monuments for you, accept the rebuke, promise to never do it again, and hope (maybe even ask with a considerable amount of contrition) for a minimal penalty.

[land butcher]

Question, A contractor has a contract to build a house on a vacant lot. The plans show the property lines.
He searches at the corners and finds tagged rebar. Maybe checks the distances between the rebar and runs string lines on the PLs to build the house.
Is he surveying?

[Jim Frame]

Is he surveying?

Nope, he's just assuming an unreasonable amount of risk. He's not representing to anyone that the rebars mark the corners, he's just making that assumption for himself. If the rebars turn out not to mark the corners and he builds the house over the parcel or setback line, it's his responsibility, not the owner's.

What he should have done is stipulate in his contract that the owner is required to provide clearly marked lot corners for use by the builder in laying out the house.

.

[Lee Hixson]

Reminds me of a client from about 25 years ago who hired me to do a parcel split on his 20-acre lot at Camp Far West. These large, rural lots were created by a tract map. He walked me back to the rear corners so he could show me the markers he had found. As we walked the 1,300'± back he bragged about the new fence that he built on the side P/Ls a few months previous.

Sure enough, there was the pipe & plug from the tract map, right by the fence corner. Later that day I had to break the news to him that he'd built his fence to the wrong pipe. The pipe he used was actually the marker for the lot on the opposite side of the rear line. His pipe lay 10 feet away...nice and pretty, hidden by some tall grass.

The slope of the hill was just enough to throw off his measuring. He had to rip out the fence and start all over again.

[jcoffey]

Mr. Alexander -

You said "but in the recent recession the relationship is usually project by project". I think that's the problem. When you were out there "looking for property corners" and discovered "one pin missing", you were boundary surveying and therefore your actions needed to be under the direction of a licensed Land Surveyor - not later, IF and after the LS is hired to replace a monument. What if, on the basis of your field 'discussion' with the owner, the owner simply decided that hiring an LS was too expensive, and he didn't need your services anymore either. Anyway, he walked the site with his civil engineer and now had enough to go on to build fences or do whatever he was planning on doing.

If you've decided that the business you want to be in involves, in any way (including the way you described), retracing or determining boundary lines or points, then by law you've decided that you need to conduct those activities under the supervision of an LS. You need to set up a contractual relationship, by retainer or some other means, with your LS. He needs to feel comfortable that you are competently able to conduct those activities under his supervision. His name needs to be on your business Organizational Record filed with the Board (and he needs to be comfortable with that fact). Absent that, the work you perform for clients can't venture into the territory of boundary surveying, even if your intentions are to derive 'preliminary' information.

[pls7809]

Great post John.

[TIB]

If the Board asks, I would tell them that you were merely helping you friend dig around and search for any stakes you might find, and that you did not indicate any property lines or corners to him (the owner), nor did you have any agreement or contract to do so. Don't let an angry, vindictive, pain in the bass neighbor make trouble for you that you don't deserve. Make the complaining neighbor have to show proof that his accusations valuid are true and you are in violation of the law. This is assuming, of course, that there is no proof (such as video, or documents or plats with your name on them etc) and that your friend the owner is on board with your response and won't rat you out.
You didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't have to put up with the neighbor stirring up trouble by saying that you did.
TIB

[Jim Frame]

If the Board asks, I would tell them...This is assuming, of course, that there is no proof

To paraphrase TIB: Lie. Great advice there, TIB. Ever consider taking a class in professional ethics?

.

[E_Page]

Also not bright to adise someone to lie to the Board on public forum - a forum that is viewed regularly by the Executive Officer of the Board.

[land butcher]

I would like to know who the neighbor knows.

[7702]

Lying, deception, half-truths, inuendos, withholding evidence..... All part of the playing field if you are an attorney advising your client in a courtroom. But for some reason, these acts are off limits for land surveyors.

I can see TIB being a bit confused with the disparity in how "professionals" are to conduct themselves. If in doubt, refer to the Board rules on professional conduct. : )

[Jim Frame]

"But for some reason, these acts are off limits for land surveyors."

An attorney's ethical duty is to pursue the best interests of his client. In contrast, a land surveyor is ethically bound to protect the public interest. One seeks narrowly-defined beneficial results; the other seeks a broad truth. Lying is anathema to the latter.

.

[bruce hall]

it would seem to me that you can get paid to help someone find or look for these monuments as long as you didn't tell them that these were the corners. After all, you do have some training in this type of a task. More than most, probably. If you stated something along the lines of what Page stated, you should be okay.

I haven't seen anything in these posts regarding lying. What TIB said might be the truth, can't say for sure cause you were there, not me.

Anyway, a lot depends on what words you exchanged with the land owners.

[rpost]

Are you sure you wern't working under the direction of your contract surveyor/friend? If I were your contract surveyor I'd say check it out and give me a call to discuss....... on any and every job that comes in.

This would of coarse be an agreement with someone I trusted and had woked with long enough to know they were performing recon with the intent to pass on the work to me if the client enlisted his firms services.

[Jim Frame]

it would seem to me that you can get paid to help someone find or look for these monuments as long as you didn't tell them that these were the corners.

I'm sure any landowner would be delighted to pay a professional engineer's hourly rate to "help him look for monuments" that might or might not mark his property corners. While he's at it, the engineer can make a couple of measurements "just for fun," and set some "topo control points" that happen to fall right about where the corners are. The bill is bound to be kind of high, because the engineer is going to be worn out from all the winking and nodding he's going to do.

A ruse is a ruse. The engineer can make all the disclaimers he wants, but if he charges a landowner for services that the owner reasonably expects to result in the identification of his parcel corners, the engineer is practicing surveying -- even if he's not aware of it. As a licensed professional, it's his responsibility to know well the limits of his regulated practice, and to be aware of situations in which a lay person might reasonably misinterpret his activities.

The BPELSG enforcement staff doesn't bring action against licensees frivolously. If a citation was issued in this matter, I'm confident that there was evidence aplenty to sustain it. Absent disclosure and review of all the details of the matter, I see no grounds for questioning the legitimacy of the sanction.
.

[TIB]

To paraphrase TIB: Lie. Great advice there, TIB. Ever consider taking a class in professional ethics?

.

Which part is a lie? The searching for stakes part is true if you consider it the same as "looking for corners" as was said. There was no mention that he had a contract or represented or indicated any property corners or boundarys, so no lie there. He said only that he was "looking for corners" not surveying. And when I suggest that he tells that same thing to the board, you call me out a liar. Sheesh! Talk about ethics

[bruce hall]

More than likely Evans post number 8 and Jim Frame's post 22 probably sums up the answer to the question posed by Alexander. They both put forth their "pitch" pretty good. Don't let this comment "go to your heads" guys ;) .

I'm sitting here trying to figure out a way to cut Alexander some slack, but after all is said and done, my take on this specific scenario is certainly close to left field.

[Jim Frame]

The Owner wanted me to help find his corners...All I was doing is looking for corners

The owner wanted the engineer to help find his corners, and the engineer admits to looking for corners. In the context of the engineer's other statements, it's clear that the owner was a client or prospective client (this wasn't a weekend barbecue at a friend's house), and that the engineer identified or intended to identify the corners to the client. That's land surveying.

TIB advised the engineer to deny that he was doing what he was doing (looking for corners for the benefit of his client), and to tell BPELSG instead that he was merely helping his "friend" search for "stakes" rather than corners (after first making sure that there's no inconvenient proof to the contrary). That's advising to lie.

The engineer got an upper body part in the wringer and came here looking for support in contesting his citation. He might get some from TIB, but he's not getting any from me.

.

[7702]

A not so subtle distinction.