ENGINEER finds Property Corners (Monuments) is he Land Surveying?

[LS 4722]

This was before I was aware of that law, but I did hand a CLSA published copy to a Irvine cop and he just glanced at it and stated, "That's for the courts to decide". .

I realize that cops can be intimidating at times but as an LS you are guaranteed right of trespass and non interference when you are doing your job. Non interference applies to law enforcement as well.

You should have pushed the issue, there is nothing that Irvine cop could have done to you. Police have a code book, next time tell them to look it up, or better yet, ask him to get a superior on site. Stand your ground.

It's a civil issue so the cops don't want to act against a complaint like that unless directed to by a court order.

Ohh, but the cop did act, he sided with the complainant and you lost out.

A couple of months ago I was locating some pipes in Altadena. A woman charged out of her house in her jammys. We were on the RW sideline, not in her backyard or anything.

She 'demanded' to know what I was doing. Well, I old her..."Doing a property survey"..very courteous with her. Then she demanded to know who I was doing it for and I told her that was private information.

Now this lady is not very happy with me. So she goes on to tell me that she is an attorney. I respond and tell her that since she is an attorney she should be aware that an LS and those working under his supervision have right of trespass and cannot be hindered in their work.

She again demands to know who I am doing the survey for, I refuse to tell her and she says "I am going to call the police"..and she did, but she also called he husband who was somewhere in the neighborhood.

Anyway...about 10 minutes later this compact car races down the street and skids to a stop next to the gun..just a few feet away. Mr Angry Hubby jumps out and get right in my face. Wifey told him all sorts of lies.

I repeat we have Right of trespass, he refuses to listen. I tell him that if he doe not believe me, just Google it. He says they don't have a computer (Yea right. An attorney without a home system)

So I finish my shots, BTW, I didn't slow down at all, we had pipes to shoot and we shot them while the guy glared at me.

I told him, when I was done at that station, "Look, I'm moving ahead, you can tag along or stay here...I really don't care" He said "I'll just wait here for the sheriff"

So off I go to the next station and while I was setting up a black and white pulls up and this sheriff looks at me and says "I hear that you are pissing off the whole neighborhood" I chuckled and just told him what we were doing and what had transpired.

The sheriff then drove down the street and spoke to Mr Angry Hubby, and this is what he said ..

"The surveyors are in the process of gathering evidence and it is against the law for anyone to interfere with that"...a bit paraphrased, but that was the meat of it.

Sheriff drove away. Hubby went inside. Upset attorney never said another word.

My point is...if you do not stand your ground when confronted in situations like these, then you may as well throw all of the right of trespass blurbs you have in the trash can.

[land butcher]

Cops do not intimidate me.

The irvine cop showed up just as we were leaving. Our company did get a call. They must have run the truck plate and that gave them a leasing company, LOL

The other one we went to a phone and called the guy we were working for and he told us to go have breakfast on him. Then we went back, and, as requested, were very loud. used our voices instead of the radios.

[land butcher]

The best one was a easy survey locating each end of a fence between a condo complex and a series of R1s.
I am set up at the intersection and my wife is locating the fence corner standing on the sidewalk. The fence negates access to the R1 but is open on the condo side (who we were working for).
This woman comes running out from the R1 and gets in my wifes face. remember now my wife very seldom goes on jobs with me. My wife got right back at her telling her we were not on her property and the sidewalk is public RoW etc etc. The woman apologized and went home. LOL

[Stephen Johnson]

A couple of my favorite answers when someone threatens to call the Sheriff/Police, etc., are:

Please do.

or

If you don't I will.

I have yet to be called on that.

Maybe because I am not bluffing.

[land butcher]

Nothing like offering them the use of your cell phone LOL

[BAlexander]

It was very interesting in seeing all the differing views on this subject of a CE finding corners in the field.
The Board has decided that the only infraction was "offering to practice LS without a license" however the only thing offered was to "stake a fence". Originally the owner merely wanted a privacy fence due to the nosey neighbor and we did not make any assumptions that this was to be located directly on the property line or not. The client just wanted privacy and as a part of the project we decided to go get field data of what was actually there including their pool, existing fences and driveway. As we went thru the field survey we picked up found corners but made no representation as to their proper location or if they were even the right corners. We knew that we needed to have a boundary from an LS and planned to get the proper professional help.
We believe that staking any road, driveway, building or fence; a part of the job is to determine where the property line is in relation to the physical features to be staked and the only correct way would be to have a LS do that determination. Almost everything to be staked on a property or within a Right of Way is based upon some offset to a boundary, wheter it is one inch or 10 feet. The real question is can a CE offer to stake a fence? We know we can offer to stake a road or driveway and must find the property line to do that so why can't we offer to stake a fence? Is the word fence really synonymous with property line?

[Ben Lund]

"Offset to a boundary" equals the need to establish the boundary (no matter the accuracy) equals Land Surveying.

Some surveyors argue that establishing the location of the boundary is a function of some standard of accuracy. In other words, some LSs may say that you are not establishing the location of boundary lines if you are not doing so at the industry standard accuracy say for a Record of Survey. I do not agree with this logic.

[E_Page]

Ben's minidiscussion on accuracy is based on his misunderstanding of another thread discussion and isn't really pertinent to your question.

If you are staking out a fixed work and its plan location is relative to the property line, then the property line must be established, and/or, the new fixed work can be seen as a type of reference monument to the property line.

The landowner, presuming he has a plan showing the fence location relative to a property line also shown, will, in most cases, assume that the property line is whatever distance from the fence that the plan says. For the landowner, it is showing him where the property line is and is therefore an establishment of the PL.

As to whether staking these items is always the same as establishing the PL, and whether or not a post-81 CE can legally do it: If an LS is retained to establish the PL and mark a baseline relative to the PL for the engineer's use, then the engineer can use that baseline to stake from. The marks for that baseline can be the verified monuments on the PL, other stakes placed on the PL, or another line with a defined relationship to the verified PL.

Bottom line is that the LS must verify/establish marks for you to work from before you do any staking.

Hope that helps.

[Ben Lund]

Evan,
Does accuracy matter when determining if the boundary is getting established? From your previous posts I'm presuming you would say yes. I do not believe accuracy matters.

[E_Page]

"Does accuracy matter?" is a vague question. Accuracy and establishment are two different questions. If you are referring to the setback thread, then you continue to miss the point and misunderstand the discussion.

Is accuracy important when establishing a boundary? Absolutely!

Is accuracy important in other tasks? Of course. Each task should be performed to achieve the required accuracies. Neither less than required, nor vastly greater than required.

But I suspect you are really referring to precision and whether it is a factor in the question of boundary establishment. Actually the reverse is true. The required precision may be dependent upon whether you are intending or are required to establish a boundary. If you are establishing a boundary, use equipment and methods adequate to achieve appropriate reporting precision. If your task is something else, asses your precision needs according to the task.

The task drives the need for particular accuracies and the need for certain levels of precision. The collection of data to certain levels of precision or to achieve certain accuracies does not determine what your task is.

I can't think of how to explain it any plainer than I already have, and I'm not going to try here. If you have specific questions about specific points or parts of my discussion in that or other threads, please post the questions there.

[Ben Lund]

Not sure why you can't answer the question and you choose to answer a different question that you created (i.e. Does accuracy matter?). I suspect you believe you are not establishing the location of a boundary when you are not performing a field survey to certain accuracy standards. Yet I am not sure about your stance given your recent posts. I thought I was making it easy on you by giving you a yes no question. I don't think I can make it any plainer.

[bruce hall]

"Does accuracy matter when determining if the boundary is getting established?"

I go out and find an iron pipe at the landowners "front" corner. I also pace to the rear of the property and find the "rear" corner of the property to my satisfaction. Both pipes are shown on a record map. I make no measurements between the pipes except for the pacing.

I then wiggle in(or get on line for you new guys) between these monuments and place stakes along this line that I have "established" or "reestablished" as being on the property line, or lot line if you like that term better. This is so the land owner can build his fence wherever wants to.

I haven't measured anything accurately(except setting the "line stakes" within an inch or so of the property line) but I have established the "property line" accurately to my satisfaction. And I can do that cause I have license just like 007 does, but for different purposes.

I can accurately locate the property line/lot line without making one accurate or precise measurement. How can I possibly do this. Because I can. Doing this may be risky, but I can still do it because I have a license like Bond.

I don't necessarily recommend this type of work product or scenario, but it can be done.

[Ben Lund]

I love your example Bruce and this illustrates a point I would like to make.

All of us would agree that only an LS could perform the actions you outlined because of 8726 which states:
“A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following: (skipping to (c))

(c)Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or boundaries.”

This is why the Original Poster post 1982 PE guy is getting in trouble by the board.

And now the point…

If accuracy does NOT determine if you are establishing or not, how does that affect 8762?

Just to review, let’s see if Bruce needs to file a Record of Survey…

Would Bruce’s actions qualify for a field survey in conformity with the practice of land surveying? Absolutely.
1) Did he disclose material evidence that does not appear on any record map? No.
2) Did he find material discrepancy in the position of points or lines or in dimensions shown on the record map? No.
3) Is there evidence that might result in materially alternate positions of lines or points? No.
4) Was the established line NOT shown on a record map? No.
5) Any points set not shown on record maps? No because stake represents fence line?

You (as the land surveyor) choose the appropriate accuracy to establish the location of a boundary line. You choose to pace, or eyeball, or tape or GIS, or aerial photo, or assessor’s map, etc. (I realize I made up some verbs there). You even choose to show fixed works, earth’s surface, etc. in relationship to this “eyeballed” boundary.

Would you still need to file an ROS if 8762 triggers?

Could you alleviate the perceived public harm with a note? Something like:

“Boundary shown hereon was eyeballed.”

Or something more common:

“Record boundary shape was fit to found monuments shown on offsite properties in which the relationship is shown on record map XXXX”

[bruce hall]

.....“Record boundary shape was fit to found monuments shown on offsite properties in which the relationship is shown on record map XXXXâ€￾,

looks likes a lot more trouble than it is worth. I wouldn't touch that statement with a 12 foot pocket tape much less a $40,000 geodimeter.

And you gotta remember that I am talking from the perspective of someone who has without a doubt, a license to survey. No grey area regarding RCE pre or post 82 with this camper. I am allowed to carry and use the gun in the truck for boundary surveying.

[Ben Lund]

I thought you might like that one! :)