Overlap between parcels in city block

[desert turtoise]

I am not a regular participant, but hope to get some input from my fellow land surveyors on a routine block survey that calls for portions of lots. Since the legals for client and adjoiners trigger the ROS requirement for lines not shown on any other map, I prepared the map for submittal and it went in once.

Like I said, this was a routine survey with established record block corners, so no problem there. But since the block is short several tenths in one direction and the deed(s) call for distances based on a full record 300 foot wide block, there is an overlap.

It's a typical overlap; the two adjoining parcels on the west border a city street with deed calls that start from that street and go east. My client's parcel to the east calls for a distance measuring from the other side of the block, going west. This is not a big overlap in my humble opinion,a couple of tenths. In fact, it is not even the line the client was interested in having surveyed. As usual, they were on a budget and asked to have one line surveyed to settle an issue with a neighbor on the north. Btw, issue is definitely settled on that north line and that neighbor is satisfied. I explained to client since the whole block had to be surveyed it would just take me a few more hours to survey their entire property and set their 6 corners(it has a jog). In their best interest, I offered to survey the entire property for the same price as their north line. I did just that.

I think an overlap of 0.17' could be a big deal in certain parts of town,for instance, I looked at a 44 story high-rise condo and restaurant building downtown this morning for a plant engineer who runs the show there. He wanted a proposal for the line between that building and the adjoiner high-rise. The particular area of my survey does not have very high real estate value. The client is not interested in hiring a title insurance company (the original title co. went under years ago when most of them went under in the early 90's recession) to trace the chain of title for the creation deeds that broke those reglular 50'x140' lots up into portions of lots.

I placed a note on the ROS along with a blowup detail of the overlap, also showing a very old stemwall that wanders on a random direction along and near the boundary. There is no issue or dispute between owners and everyone appears to have long acquiesced in the wall location. I do not think the two owners on the west even know there was a survey. Hopefully, this will not be another instance of a surveyor stirring up neighbors.

My surveyor's note states that I made a good faith effort downtown at the recorder/assessor office to find out who was the original grantor and grantee so the correct grantee can be given the overlapping amount. We all know,or should know that the grantee is typically construed to receive their full distance call and the grantor(having superior knowledge of particulars) can only get what is left. My county surveyor as well, states that he wants this result determined for my next submittal.

As mentioned above, I was only able to trace back about four ownerships of the three parcels involved, back to the 1930's. Then the old assessor tape reels and/or my abilities as an amateur abstractor hit their limits.

My question is, have I performed to or above a professional standard of care such that I should request that this ROS be filed at this time ? Is it sufficient that my detail indicates an overlap with exact dimensions of this overlap ? Is it the land surveyor's responsibility to determine title to the overlap area on his/her ROS ? What about the client's wishes ?
Thank you for any input from this forum.

[mpallamary]

Hi,
I have a few ideas. My practice starts where most other conventional surveyors stop. What that means is I take the problem on to a solution. If you took the steps and conducted a chain of title research effort, do you now own it? At a minimum, you might want to consider placing a note on the survey and state that it is subject to the effects of additional deeds. As to the notion of being limited by a "budget" that is irrelevant. Most surveyors who get into trouble do so because of "budget" issues. It is asking to a doctor not removing the entire tumor or the dentist fixing half the cavity. In a situation like this, if possible I try to get an agreement as to the location of the disputed line, between the owners. If not, show the alternate location(s) and note accordingly. You may want to become more proficient as an abstractor. As to the client's wishes, I am sure it is not to spend too much money. That is not adequate grounds to neglect your professional duties. I do not believe it is the surveyor's duties to determine disputed title - it is though, to disclose the problem. Title lines and surveys lines are two different things. Unwritten transfers are problematic. Whatever you do, disclose and document. It is like a doctor. Make a diagnosis and give the patient some options. Good luck.

[Jim Frame]

As mentioned above, I was only able to trace back about four ownerships of the three parcels involved, back to the 1930's. Then the old assessor tape reels and/or my abilities as an amateur abstractor hit their limits.

First: I agree with Michael that you need to follow through. Cost isn't a defense in this instance.

Second: It seems to me you should be looking at the grantor/grantee indices in the Recorder's Office, not messing around with the Assessor.

Third: In Northern California, where I work, there are lots of independent contractors (i.e. not employed by a title company) who will do title research for very reasonable fees. The last one I spoke with said he could chase a chain of title back to patent in Yolo County for under $200. That kind of expense is well worth it to me, since sitting in front of a microfilm reader for hours on end isn't my idea of a good time. You might ask the staff in the Recorder's Office if they can put you in touch with someone like that.

Fourth: Good luck!

.

[Propst]

Don't be afraid to ask for additional legitimate costs associated with his project.
Your bargaining power is about nil, but it cant hurt to ask, and I've found clients sometimes understand and are willing to pay. If not, well at least you tried.
Based on the facts as presented, I believe you're locked into finding those original cut deeds. I would hire someone to do that, but in any event you'll do that at the recorder's, not the assessor's.
If you haven't done it before you might benefit from the experience. Feel free to ask for help, you might get some, you may not, but ask. My experience with recorder's office personnel is that they are rather curt, but genuinely want to help. I enjoy it personally, but I know others are better at it than I am so that's who I use.
Good Luck, and enjoy the experience!

[mpallamary]

These are all great suggestions. Good luck.

[desert turtoise]

Mike, thank you for your comments. You mention it is not the surveyors' responsibility to determine disputed title, just disclose and document. Yes, I did that on the ROS. Fortunately, there is no dispute to resolve.

I meant to say I was using the grantor-grantee index, so sorry for the confusion there Jim. If I ever take on a job where the contract obligates me to perform a chain of title search, I would defintely plan for hiring such a subcontractor to act as abstractor.

But am a bit confused about Jim's comment on the need "to follow through" with what Mike said. Mike says to disclose and document and I did that on the ROS. Have I met a reasonable standard of care by disclosing,documenting and recording ? Besides mapping an overlap, does the surveyor also have the obligation to solve the overlap ?

[Propst]

You don't know if there is an overlap or not until you get those cut deeds.
Once you have them it should resolve according to seniority.

[LS 4722]

It looks like you have to do more research on this one. That's pretty much been said :)

As mentioned above, I was only able to trace back about four ownerships of the three parcels involved, back to the 1930's. Then the old assessor tape reels and/or my abilities as an amateur abstractor hit their limits.

The assessors maps are the best place to start a chain of title. Since you could only trace back to the 1930's with the microfilm, I suggest that you continue your research going through the original archived assessor map books. Those particular books should be available. Hopefully you are not working in a county that has destroyed the books in favor of a microfilm archive.

Once you have found the original uncut parcel of land then finding out who was senior grant should be a snap since all transactions done in the era you will be looking in were handwritten down in the AMB.

With the grantor/grantee information in hand, just head to the recorders office and start the search by name and date.

To me, gap or overlap means the same thing, a problem created by a surveyor who does not go the extra mile and creates a siituation where none actually exists.

Deeds do not create gaps, only surveyors do. Don't be one that creates a gap, be a surveyor that closes a gap.

As an aside, I would not hire another to do the chain of title search. Doing that may solve the gap problem but it sure wont help you improve your abstraction skills.

PS An overlap (gap) will exist when one surveyor monuments long (or short) of the common title line, but it still comes down to the surveyor creating the problem.

[mpallamary]

The vast majority of work I do (across California) involves insurance work. This usually occurs because there is some form of boundary dispute. In one case I am working on, there are about 15 surveys and an overlap of 150 feet. All of the surveyors are arguing who did the better job and in typical fashion, they are arguing about who measures better. I was hired by the title company to assist in a resolution to the dispute. That is my job and that is why insurance companies hire me.

When I am involved in a contentious or disputed boundary dispute and regardless of the number of surveys, I start backwards and consider the surveys the basis for knowing where things are. I then start with the improvements and work backwards. If there are attorneys involved, I meet with them and their clients and the first question I ask is where do you think the line is or where would you accept the line to be? Once we have that question resolved, we use whatever tools are necessary to accomplish that objective and we avoid disputes, litigation and the worse of all - petty surveyor ego arguments about who is using GPS and who isn't. I might suggest lot line adjustments, easements, boundary line agreements or whatever is the best tool. Many sitting judges refer the combatants to me to guide them through a solution as part of a court ordered settlemtn process.

At any given moment, I have 4 to 5 cases or trials like this going on.
In fact I have one right now where two surveyors made a very large error that affected 7 properties. One filed a parcel map and the other several Record of Survey maps, not all in agreement with the other. It was very messy and a lot of headaches were created. I was hired by a title company to make sense out of it and the first thing I did was to meet with the surveyors and I suggested they put their equipment away and check their egos at the door. Once that was done, we arrived an an acceptable solution. I explained to them that if they were unwilling to work together and if they wanted to argue about satellite arrays, they would probably end up being sued. That happened in one of my cases last year and it cost a hard headed surveyor a lot of money.

I do a lot of this work.

I also provide what is known as “peer to peer” consultation. In this capacity, two or more surveyors will have me serve as a mediator to try and work out a solution between them. I have done this for the courts before as a “court master.” Sadly, a lot of surveyors know a lot about measuring things and few understand real property law and conflict resolution. Far too many surveyors do a "hit and run" with clients; they do a survey, set the monuments and file something and then walk away and tell the client they have a problem and that is when I step in. I guide them through a potential title claim, I help them hire an attorney if needed and I see them through a resolution. In other words, I take the problem to a resolution. In many instances, other surveyors will refer their clients to me as they prefer not to do this part of it. It is like a doctor making a diagnosis and not wanting to do the surgery.

I hope this makes sense. As an aside, I am usually paid three to four times what the original surveyor who dumped the stakes and ran was paid.

I applaud this stream of discussion as it displays professional conduct and diligence, two admiral qualities.

[mpallamary]

Here's another way to view this:

http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmericanSurveyor_Pallamary-PhasedContracting_Vol7No4.pdf

[E_Page]

If you've stalled in the Grantor/Grantee indices, take a second look at the names on the oldest deeds you have. Sometimes properties are left to a wife after husband's death and she remarries, or sometimes property goes to the wife in a divorce and she reverts to her maiden name. These things may show up in a judgment or will, but not entered into the Grantor/Grantee indeces (shoulda been, but doesn't always happen since only partial transfer). You can often look things up in the official records by party name easily if the recorder has computer search available, and may find the name link you need to continue in the Grantee/Grantor in minutes.

You can also search the Grantee/Grantor indeces from the other direction. Begin with the owner listed in the subdivision map's owner's statement/certificate and work forward. That can be a slower because the original subdivider sold all the lots in the subdivision and quite possibly owned and sold many other unrelated properties. But if you've only searched in reverse chronological order, this is an avenue you need to pursue to meet the minimum standard of care, IMO.

In my experience, unless the Recorder's Office experienced some sort of catastrophe in the past in which they lost records, the information to complete the chain is there. It just takes a slightly different approach to get beyond an obstacle in the record chain.

[Keithwill]

Deeds do not create gaps, only surveyors do.

[Keithwill]

Good grief!

[btaylor]

I think Keith gave me a worse case of tinnitus than a Who concert with that post.

[mpallamary]

Thanks Woodcutter!

Stay well.

[Keithwill]

Sorry btaylor!

It offends my reading eyes to read of gaps and overlaps of finger nail distances.

What the hell are they thinking?

Maybe if I say it loud enough, more research and learning might take place.

You can always hope.

[Keithwill]

Maybe some will go to bed tonight and really wonder about this profession called Land Surveying and the fact that it is not an expert measuring society.

I really wonder sometimes?