LS Prep Classes?

[ekparian]

I am going for the LS exam in October 2013, and would like to find a study group or start one in Santa Clara, San Benito, Santa Cruz, or Monterey Counties. We would need a Licensed Land Surveyor to Mentor us. So far i am the only one in my area looking for a study group. if interested, please let me know.

[Rob_LS]

People there may know others who are interested. CLSA DVDs are also and option...

[land butcher]

Ok i'll bite where is the 2013 test schedule. I was just on the State board site and no 2013 test category just 2012.

[Rob_LS]

Scroll down at: http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/exam_schedule.shtml

4/12-13 & 10/25-26 for many. Not scheduled yet for CA PLS, CA CE Seismic or Engineering Surveying - * Schedule is subject to change in accordance with Board Rule 436(c).

[land butcher]

Wonder what the hang up is?
With just having to go to some computer station having the CA LS specific in April should not be a issue.

[Rob_LS]

I can't speak for BPELSG, but my personal feeling is there are too many people who say "There ought to be a law..." because something happened that shouldn't have happened, and too many other people who say "Defund government" because they think all government does is waste taxpayer money. Between those two groups, they cause the hang-ups of making the contracting process extremely onerous, and having so many rules in place to make sure the folks in the government don't waste tax-payer money, that it wastes tax-payer money and time to go through the contracting process. Ultimately, government staff are trying to comply with the laws and make sure the taxpayer gets the value he should be getting. I'm not saying trust blindly, but think about all the reporting requirements there are for "transparency" and ask who even goes to their city government office to read audit reports?

Back to the Exam - It's not just "some computer station" and it's not like the Board can say to an applicant, "Go take the exam Tuesday." They have to negotiate a competitive contract with a testing firm, probably selected through a Qualification Based Selection (QBS) process. Hopefully, the last one was a multi-year contract. Have you ever been through a QBS process to be selected as a consultant/contractor? And believe me, these contracts aren't like the ones a small firm owner signs with his/her clients having only 5 requirements (Who can name all 5?).

The testing firms provide exams for many other disciplines, so specific dates with enough open seats for our LS candidates have to be identified. A lot of considerations are in place, and of course, our testing parameters - what is allowed in the exam - are all different from other exams. Also, the exam changes from year to year for security purposes. New questions are developed, analyzed, tested, and evaluated so the exam tests what it is intended to test. Everything has to be scheduled, uploaded, tested, confirmed, and approved. Was it clear the State specific LS is now computer based? What do you have to do to load new software on your work computer? If you are a solo operator, you ARE the IT approval guy. Not so in working between a government organization and a private company. What kind of concerns would you have if you had to provide your work product to a client, but it had to be used at a third party’s facility?

How much would the public (you?) complain if something got messed up. The BPELSG staff is amazingly small for what they accomplish, and dedicated to what they do. Most of the time everything goes right. Sometimes, bad things happen. BPELSG staff stand up and take charge of the situation, and fix the problem as best they can. Something went wrong last spring with an engineering exam. BPELSG made things right for the candidates that satisfied people with their careers hanging in the balance.

[land butcher]

Well thank you for the enlightenment.

The test and dates should all be set up by now. IMO they moved too fast into new territories and those taking the exams are beta testing the system.

Different tests (Natl and State) given at different locations with different rules administered by different companies using tunnel visioned min wage robots on a power trip as proctors.

Why is it when a govt agency messes up it's because they are underfunded and/or understaffed, but when a private company does it it's fraud.

[CalifCarl]

LB The answer to your question is contained in one word "PROFIT".

[Josh Tatman]

The test and dates should all be set up by now. IMO they moved too fast into new territories and those taking the exams are beta testing the system.

Mr. LB, while I admire the keep chipping at it attitude… IMO, I think you are way off base from the facts; it might behoove you to go re-read Rob_LS’s post as he explains the many nuances with exam development.

If that doesn't seem to satisfy you, I would highly suggest you sign up to be part the Examination Development, so that way there isn't any confusion on your part. I've gone ahead and attached the “Expert Consultant” form for PLS Exam Development. I’m sure the board will be glad to accept your application.

Should you choose not do that, you’re more than welcome to keep that head in the sand and say everything is just “smoke and mirrors”.

A good quote to remember "If you are not involved you cannot complain".

[DanFrink]

[land butcher]

LOL. No thanks, without compensation similar to what the CEO of Hostess received for jumping onto that sinking ship, I'm not about to board the BPELSG Titanic. In this case a better adage would be "You made your bed, you sleep in it."

"I’m sure the board will be glad to accept your application."
LOL again. Be careful what you ask for you just might get it. I know I would not hold my breath waiting to be "accepted". And why bother, once 6 or 8 exams are written, which should already be done, they don't need any more. Besides, for many years I have limited my practice to my areas of expertise and am no longer fully knowledgeable of all the facets of Land Surveying and do not consider myself a "expert" consultant outside of those areas, but I know where to look should I need to. I know my limitations.

Years ago the dates for the exam were set at least a year or more in advance. Is all this new technology preventing advanced planning? Maybe it's the result of writing dumbed down multiple guess tests. Yea, I know your response, so prove to me that these multiple guess tests are better, or even as good, as the ones given a decade or more ago.

As for the QBS process, why Prometric instead of NCEES? I thought NCEES was the most qualified for multiple guess testing, after all they give the national. I believe the State has been contracting with Prometric for years.

Having tests given by different companies would not be a issue if the rules for entering the exam area and the taking of the test were EXACTLY the same, but they are not, and to me that is a major issue.

As for defunding govt. Any agency that is not doing it's job should be defunded. If your insurance company did not pay a claim would you renew with them? Most likely not, but how many BPELSG's are there in CA that give me a option to go somewhere else for the test.

From their responses it would appear that Dan, Josh, and Rob have always found the govt agencies they deal with to be; efficient, follow the letter of the law, charge reasonable fees for their services, and if they make a error offer to reimburse the citizen for his losses.

Have a good day gentlemen

[E_Page]

Mr. Murphy,

You said: "[F]or many years I have limited my practice to my areas of expertise and am no longer fully knowledgeable of all the facets of Land Surveying and do not consider myself a "expert" consultant outside of those areas, but I know where to look should I need to. I know my limitations."


No surveyor is expert in all areas of practice, and you're not expected to be to help with exam development. Anyone who claims to be expert in all areas of practice unwittingly identifies homself as someone who knows just enough about everything to really screw up anything they do.

If you help with exam development, you work on questions within your areas of knowledge. As part of the development team, and with regard to those areas of practice in which you are not expert, your role would likely be to offer commentary on the clarity of the question: Is the question clear; do you know what is being asked; is it sufficiently definite to not allow more than one of the answers to be the only correct or best answer; is it at an appropriate level to test for minimal professional competence?

If you are expert in one or two areas of practice and at least minimally competent in several others, you are likely qualified to work on exam development.



You asked: "why Prometric instead of NCEES?"


You are under the mistaken impression that NCEES does all the work of administering their exams themselves. NCEES actually uses Prometric as well in pretty much the same capacity as does California.

Both NCEES and CA BPELSG looks to practicing professionals to volunteer (there is pay, but it is generally less than most licensees make) to develope the questions and the grading plan. Prometric and other consultant's like them provide psychometric guidance (what are you intending to ask and is that what you are really asking with the questions you write), administrative and IT/computer system support.



You said: "Having tests given by different companies would not be a issue if the rules for entering the exam area and the taking of the test were EXACTLY the same, but they are not, and to me that is a major issue."

I was unaware that there were several different private companies administering the CA LS exam. Has it become like traffic school and no one told me? Can an examinee now choose which company to take the exam with?

OK, sarcasm aside. I believe you are correct that BPELSG has been contracting with Prometric for several years. They have been involved with the LS exam for 3 or 4 years now, but I believe they have been involved with the engineering exams for several years prior to that (I may not have my facts complete here, but IIRC, that's what I was told). The contractor does not set the security rules, the regulating agency/organization (NCEES or BPELSG) does. With the transition to all multiple guess format, BPELSG has been making some security rule changes. But to my knowledge, the same rules apply at all testing sites. I'm not sure what the "major issue" is that your referring to.



You said: "Any agency that is not doing it's job should be defunded. If your insurance company did not pay a claim would you renew with them? Most likely not, but how many BPELSG's are there in CA that give me a option to go somewhere else for the test."

BPELSG may not be doing the job they way you think they should... heck, they're probably not doing the job you think they are and probably are doing the job you think they're not..., but they are regulating the engineering, surveying and geology professions by administering the entry exams and through enforcement when they are given sufficient evidence of violations.

I don't understand your insurance company parallel. What is it that you think BPELSG is not doing that they should do?

Surveying is a licensed activity. That means that none of us have an inherent right to make a living by offering surveying services. We can only do so if we are granted that privilege (license) by the body responsible for reasonably ensuring that such services are provided to the public in a competent manner. The State issues the licenses, and so the State gets to determine what the appropriate minimal level of competence is and what the requirements of practice will be.

Driving a vehicle is a licensed activity. That means that none of us have an inherent right to operate a motor vehicle without having been granted the appropriate license. Insurance companies do not issue driver's licenses, nor can they revoke or suspend them. They provide a service associated with the licensed activity just as insurance companies provide a service associated with licensed professional practice.

Perhaps you would prefer that a license be in a little foil envelope at the bottom of a box of caramel corn, or that you could just pop in to "Joe's Smog and Professional Licenses" to take care of DMV and BPELSG at the same time and that if you don't pass at Joe's (either the smog or the LS), you could adjust the timing on your car, read an article in the Cal Surveyor and show up the next day to take both again. Or if you don't like the way Joe grades the exam, maybe you know a guy who knows a guy who can guarantee you will pass or you don't pay, and he always gets paid.

Yeah, that'd be the way to go.

I'm not really clear as to what you would want. You complain that (nonexistent) inconsistency between testing sites due to different consultants giving the test is a "major issue", and then in the next paragraph, complain that you do not have the option to choose a different organization to be tested and regulated through if you don't like the service you are getting through BPELSG. So which is it - Are you upset that too many outfits are giving the exam or upset that you don't have the option of looking to another outfit to administer your license? I really get the impression that you don't care one way or the other, but want to argue both ways just for a basis of ranting against a government agency for the sport of it. (I'm not entirely against that. Ranting against govt can be cathartic and has a long and fine history in American culture. Just be aware that the rest of us see through the surface topics to the underlying sport.)


I actually agree with your comments on all multiple guess as an appropriate format for a professional level exam. I have yet to have a client or an employer bring me a project that has with it a provided set of 5 potential solutions for each step. A more realistic and relevant exam would be to provide a scenario and then have the examinee identify the important issues and then write their own questions pertaining to those issues and then answer them. 1/3 of the points awarded for properly identifying the important issues, 1/3 for forming relevant questions that must be asked when working toward a solution, 1/3 for providing the correct answer.


You began with: "... I'm not about to board the BPELSG Titanic. In this case a better adage would be 'You made your bed, you sleep in it.'"

I'm not clear as to what your trying to say here either. Are you afraid that BPELSG is haeding for impending doom (a licensing cliff?) and if you have helped with exam development that somehow you or your business will also be doomed, but if you do not help that somehow your license and business will be insulated from BPELSg's failure?

There isn't even a glimmer of sense I can make out of that.

And stating "you made your bed..." seems to suggest that you don't think that BPELSG should be permitted to change course if they determine that they did go the wrong direction with the multiple guess exam (or with other policies/actions). So you think that they should be made to suffer by not being permitted to take corrective action or discontinue a failing policy, and yet the rest of your post is a sting of complaints that what they are doing isn't working.

Ohhhh, I get it. This is that same Catch 22 to feed the sport of anti-government ranting just for the sake of it. Now it all makes sense!

[land butcher]

I'm gonna put this as simply as I can so it's better understood.

I resigned from one survey education program when I became aware of the direction the powers to be were taking it. I felt it would reduce the quality of the personal on the crews and it did.

As such I will not join another program whose direction is already determined when I feel it is going produce lesser qualified persons.

[Gary Schenk]

LOL. No thanks, without compensation similar to what the CEO of Hostess received for jumping onto that sinking ship

As a former baker once employed by Continental Baking (Hostess), I can assure you that Hostess was not sinking until those Wall Street MBAs jumped onboard.

Pirates jumping aboard, raping and pillaging, would be a more appropriate metaphor.

As for your complaints about bureaucracy, having been involved with both types, I feel your pain. But I can tell you the government type is rather benign, corporate bureaucracy is deliberately out to screw you, and everybody else.

[land butcher]

Govt exists to take everything they can from the sheeple and they are like a heron addict - always needing more.

They are constantly looking for ways to tax the sheeple. Note; I include all fees, user fees, taxes, hidden fees, any money that we are forced to pay to govt, together into taxes.

Most people have no clue as to how much the govt steals from them every year outside the deductions on their pay stub. There are literally hundreds of everyday items with hidden user fees. Oil last year raised to 7 cents a qt, carpet 5 cents per foot, plastic bottles - the fees are bad enough but what is worse is the non compliance to have the required number of recycling centers. And the list goes on. Try and trace where the "recycling fees" go.

Changing their own rule about "as from the factory only smog equipt" to require OBII CATs on OBI cars which cost ~250% more than the OBI CAT.

Feinsteins bill to require EVERY semi-auto gun to have a $200 per year permit. Won't save one life. People kill, not guns.

They lie to get a bill passed. Example the Lottery "All lottery profits will go to the schools". Well, yes it does but what they didn't tell everyone is that for every dollar that goes to schools from the lottery a dollar is removed from the general fund allocation for schools. So the increase to schools - ZERO. And I am betting the same applies to the additional sales tax increase the sheeple just approved.

Who controls govt? Big business and unions. CA is controlled by the unions.

Do politicians care how much they spend? No, why should they. As Gavin Newsome stated "We have unlimited taxing authority". Just like Nottingham.

A neighbor's relative died and left a small orange grove with a old water truck that hasn't moved in 50 years. Anaheim hit him with a $1600 fee.

How interested are your politicians in you. A couple of years ago I tried to contact Feinstein, her phone msgs directed you to her web site, her email did not work nor did her fax number. I sent a letter that went unanswered. Her email apparently works now. I get replies a month or 2 later.

Private business has a profit and loss sheet - not so in govt.
When a private business doesn't do as you want them to you can go to another company in the same business - not so in govt.

The unions killed Hostess - come on, one truck to deliver bread and another to deliver cupcakes. And the lumpers for bread could not load cupcakes. What kind of stupid union strikes a company in bankruptcy?

The govt and it's CRA created this housing mess. The best read is "The Housing Boom and Bust" by Thomas Sowell for a start.

If a govt employee screws up bad do they get fired. Look at how long, with her superiors knowledge, it took to fire that Utah highway patrol officer.

I'll take private business over govt any day of the week.

[LS_8750]

Who has the time for the bollocks?

LSITs .... Get qualified, take the test, pass, and let your apprenticeship begin.

If it was easy every jackass would be doing it, and writing a book too...

[Gary Schenk]

CA is controlled by the unions.

Is that why the unions took a 15% pay cut through the furloughs, because they control state government?

The unions killed Hostess - come on, one truck to deliver bread and another to deliver cupcakes. And the lumpers for bread could not load cupcakes. What kind of stupid union strikes a company in bankruptcy?

You believe everything you read in the papers? How about some facts. In 2004 the Hostess union employees took pay cuts and started making their own payments to the union and industry pension fund.

Meanwhile, the Wall Street MBAs that had taken over Hostess were giving themselves millions in bonuses and salary increases.

The unions made good faith concessions to work with the company, while management kept pillaging.

At the time of this last strike the bakers were making less money in 2012 than they were in 1996.

Just recently, Hostess management asked the judge for $1.8 million in executive bonuses. That was granted.

Meanwhile, for more than a year, Hostess had not only stopped making their own mandated payments to the pension fund, they did not even turn over the employees payments, keeping them for themselves.

I'm sure you have no sympathy for hard working bakers and drivers who labor for an honest living having their pensions reduced. But you may be interested to know that Hostess has also screwed over the other baking companies who will now see their pension fund contributions increase 5-10%.

This affects people like Jack Lewis. He built his baking company into a regional company with 5 bakeries in three states. He did that with unionized employees, all the while making a nice profit without screwing over his community, customers, colleagues or employees.

He got the shaft from Hostess, too. Just like I did when I lost most of my future bakers pension because of the thieves who took over Hostess.

Sorry to go off topic here. I'll stop now.

[E_Page]

Getting back on track for LS prep: Check with the nearest CLSA chapters as to review courses.

Hopefully you've gotten some response from others in your area regarding forming a study group. The CLSA chapter meetings are also a good place to find one or more experienced LSs who may be willing to answer questions for you and help guide your studies.

Lacking any of that, or in addition to all of that, you can present questions on this forum and usually get good feedback from experienced LSs. A handful of the LSs that regularly post here posted several questions when they were preparing for the exam 5 to 7 years ago. There hasn't been as much such activity since then, so maybe the availability of review courses are covering it adequately.