Splitting curbs--ROS or CR?

[MikeTurnrose]

I have seen several ROS and CRs that show the lot line determination of a Lot on a recorded sub. map. It seems to me that you would have to an ROS to be in compliance with PLS 8762(a)--"material evidence or physical change which does not appear on a recorded map". Most of these I've seen are retracements of lots of very old subdivisions with no original monumentation shown. What say others?

[LS_8750]

Another surveyor could come along and measure differently than you, and consequently set up the block a bit differently. RoS definitely.

I'm splitting curbs now in Santa Clara County. Interesting survey because I found an old 2.75"x2.75" redwood hub, rotted out where it was in contact with the ground, with a rusted out hand forged square headed nail driven into its center, and with remnants of old white paint still remaining. I believe it to be an original monument set in 1905. No record of anybody ever finding one of these. Further interesting because a hundred feet away I found an old rusted iron pipe a tenth away from a brand new hub and tack. No record of the pipe either. Plus I split the curbs and it all fits amazingly well.

[btaylor]

I think it depends on what else is found. If you are setting up a block entirely from curb splits, it screams ROS. If you find an original block corner, and split curbs to get up a bearing, I have no problem with a CR in that case.

[MikeTurnrose]

This is in Palo Alto. There are no survey maps of record on this block and the original map mentions nothing of original mons.

[btaylor]

Since I know PA curbs are extremely reliable I have no actual problem with it personally, but I know people will scream ROS in this case.

My problem with any curb split block/ROS is that people always show nothing but their lot corner monuments so if I survey the block I will not be on the survey whether it is a CR or ROS unless I split the curbs as well, so the CR/ROS map does nothing for me but show me curbs work - unless they also set RMs at the intersections.

[MikeTurnrose]

I've always filed ROS maps for this sort of thing in PA, but I've been seeing more Cor. Recs lately.

[LS_8750]

Mike, my survey is in Palo Alto as well. I checked into all fence occupation in addition to splitting the curbs and finding a couple of never before found monuments. I plan to show on my RoS the fence lines as well, to demonstrate how everything actually works out.

[btaylor]

Mike, my survey is in Palo Alto as well. I checked into all fence occupation in addition to splitting the curbs and finding a couple of never before found monuments. I plan to show on my RoS the fence lines as well, to demonstrate how everything actually works out.

I survey PA often. Out of curiosity where did you find that old hub?

[Ric7308]

In considering this topic, my first thought was to go to 8765(d) and 8771(a) to determine if it meets the "sufficient", "perpetuation", and "reestablishment" criteria.

Next, I review 8762(b)(1) for "material evidence" that does not appear on prior records; 8762(b)(3) for "evidence...might result in materially alternate positions..."; and 8762(b)(4) for "the location, relocation, establishment, reestablishment,..."

Any evidence that is used by the land surveyor in making a determination on location of the property lines, not already shown on applicable documents, would require an RS. And that RS should provide sufficient information to allow individuals following that survey to readily measure from consistent points of evidence. In the case mentioned in this topic, doesn't the curb become evidence and an artificial monument by virtue of being designated as such by the land surveyor performing the survey?

[btaylor]

We always get into this parsing of the laws, but to me, the issue is the public welfare. Does it really matter to the public if in this case it is a CR or ROS? Not really.

What is an issue, is if the owners erect a $30K retaining wall along the line and destroy your pipes in the process, is your survey retraceable? I kinda wish we looked at the laws like this instead of the parsing of the LS Act stuff.

But yes, laws are laws.

[Ric7308]

Actually Bryan, that is a very good point. If the wall (or any other type of construction has eliminated the points set by the land surveyor, how will subsequent land surveyors be able to sufficiently retrace your work without having other evidence to measure from in the field and as documented in the record.

[LS_8750]

Bryan,

K Maps 75
Map No. 2
Seale Addition

I was basically astonished to find it. Base of an old fence post under a 4"-thick stock of ivy. I just found an old iron pipe, never reported to have been found, at another nearby corner and was apparently feeling a bit frisky. Guess the nail kept me scratching around.

2.75"x2.75" chamfered top redwood hub, with rusted hand forged square headed nail driven into the center, base was rotted out where in contact with the ground, still had remnants of white paint on it.

McMillan's original hub? Map doesn't say what he set.

[pls7809]

Good thread. Personally, I believe the RS is the way to go. I also believe if you are splitting the curbs to create street centerline intersections where no monuments exist, then you should set a monument at the intersection too. I know a county surveyor cannot require you to set one as a part of an RS, but it makes sense to me to set one.

[Lee Hixson]

In a curb split situation I give distances to where I took my curb shots so that someone could retrace my efforts

[bruce hall]

tagged and durable in the street, either at the intersections or where you measured yours curb splits. File an RS or CR? Doesn't really matter except to the CS, I guess, and what the checking fee is. Checking fees can be a pain, but not here in the OC.

Can my survey be recreated by the other guy (if the lot corners get knocked out) without a whole lot of stuff to do?????? Make it easy for me, pretty please.

[Rob_LS]

2.75"x2.75" chamfered top redwood hub, with rusted hand forged square headed nail driven into the center...

McMillan's original hub?

But it's not mine!

[Scott Tikalsky]

If the hub matched record, I know it's not yours!! :0 Have a good day Rob!

[RAM]

my guide has been if I have to ask my peers, file a R/S.

Scott, Sonora pass was open of opening day of fishing, Tioga to open next week.

[JMS8070]

wait...if you have to ask your peers you file a R/S...but that would mean you don't need to ask your peers...so wouldn't you file a corner record?

=)

[scarpa]

Mike: Unless said improvements show up on a previous “boundary map”, I would be hard pressed not to file a ROS.

That being said, let’s have some fun with the rest of the thread.

Assumption: One has dutifully searched for ALL monuments adjacent to client’s parcel and found zero, zippo, nada.

If I split the improvements AROUND the entire block, then I can mathematically determine the positional limits of the block (centerline or right-of-way). Then I calculate the “four corners” of client’s lot and set durable monuments (6”x6” concrete pillars : } ), and file a ROS/CR. Let’s say the two front corners are 50 feet apart and the block is 500 feet long. If I only set “four” monuments (two of which will be in someone’s backyard), have I helped or hindered the next surveyor following in my footsteps? I have potentially encouraged the next surveyor to dance the “two monument tango”. The next surveyor would probably be feeling a little “one sigma” with regards to our two surveys matching.

As Lee describes, I have seen several maps which show distances (station and offsets) to indicate the position and type of the improvements used. Next surveyor is feeling better, but maybe not quite “two sigma”.

Okay, funs over.

As Ryan suggests, if no centerline monument exists, SET a (durable) monument.

Our profession and associated professions have contributed directly and indirectly to the demise of thousands of monuments. Now is the time for private and public sector surveyors to work together. Collaborate, negotiate, or do whatever it takes to PROTECT the public’s property rights.

[LS_8750]

One thing I adhere to is to work within my block. I will not declare the location of the street centerlines. Doing so only invites the surveyor across the street to disagree with my work. I will split the curbs, but then hold the bearing on my side, thereby leaving the next surveyor across the street some wiggle room.