Bay Area Survey Crew Rates - DELETED

[Administrator]

This post has been deleted with the permission of the original thread starter in an effort to avoid inadvertent violations of the Antitrust law.

[Jim Frame]

Posting of rates is a violation of anti-trust law.

Wrong. Colluding to fix rates is illegal; merely posting rates without any intent to establish uniform rates among providers is legal. Readily available examples are far too numerous to mention, but consider airlines as one of them -- they all post their fares, even for identical routes, online for everyone to see. As long as they don't collude to establish rates in restraint of trade, no laws are broken.

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[dmi]

I suggest that you contact Operating Engineer's local 3. You may even find the info that your are looking for on line

[btaylor]

I find it VERY hard to believe that posting rates are illegal, as in this example.

[cals6406]

On a Land Surveyors Association and price fixing.

I can see why why we would avoid even the slightest appearance of fixing prices.

[Stephen Johnson]

Posting or listing rates is a LOOOONG way from collusion for price fixing. Someone just got nervous over the wrong thing.

[Jim Frame]

When I returned to the office this afternoon, I had a message from Dorothy Calegari at CLSA Central Office. I suppose it relates to my rates post, which an administrator appears to have deleted without notification. It makes one wonder how many other posts have been quietly removed.
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[btaylor]

Jim that is very odd. I saw your post before it was deleted. You merely listed your rates. How is that different than when I am at a mechanic and I see rates for their labor?

[7702]

But do professionals typically advertise their rates? I don't recall ever seeing a doctor or lawyer or other professionals doing so. Professionals don't tend to get in low bidding wars with the competition, they set a rate based on a number of factors and for the most part leave it alone, right? Are the rules different for us than they are for everyone else?

[btaylor]

But do professionals typically advertise their rates? I don't recall ever seeing a doctor or lawyer or other professionals doing so. Professionals don't tend to get in low bidding wars with the competition, they set a rate based on a number of factors and for the most part leave it alone, right? Are the rules different for us than they are for everyone else?

I am often asked to supply my rate sheet when bidding on jobs, so it does not seem that much different to see Jim post his on here.

But in terms of your question, I thought with some professional jobs, they do have fees related to certain procedures, which they advertise about, like laser surgery for eyes.

[Jim Frame]

But when they converse amongst themselves as to a regions price, I for one would see some wrong in that.

Conversation isn't unethical or illegal; colluding to fix prices or rig bids is. It doesn't matter whether the collusion takes place on an Internet forum, during a private phone call or at a meeting in a bar; it's not the publication of numbers that matters, it's the intent to restrain trade.

Consider the following hypothetical discussion among two land surveyors:

1. Surveyor A: I'm going to post my hourly rates on my website.

2. Surveyor B: I'm going to do that, too.

3. Surveyor A: Then we can check each others' rates. If I see that you've raised your rates, I'll raise mine, too. And you do the same.

4. Surveyor B: Okay.

Statement 1 isn't illegal.

Statement 2 isn't illegal.

Statement 3 is a solicitation to collude in the restraint of trade, and probably illegal on the part of Surveyor A. At this point Surveyor B is still innocent.

Statement 4 is collusion to restrain trade, and both surveyors are guilty. The restraint isn't consumated until the colluders follow through with their plan, but my understanding is that the law was broken as soon as the agreement was reached.

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[Jim Frame]

The difference being the separate advertisement on one's own ad source vs discussions held amongst grocers as to region and individual pricing.

That's my whole point -- there is no difference, because it's not about the rates, it's about collusion. The rates are just numbers; the crime is restraint of trade.

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[7702]

http://www.ftc.gov/bc/antitrust/dealings_with_competitors.shtm

[land butcher]

If you want collusion look no further than your local gas stations.

Posting rates is not illegal. Union pay rates and benefit costs are simply a phone call away as are prevailing wage rates. Any agency requiring prevailing wages has to give anyone the list of rates if they ask for it.

Now if all, or a large group, of Orange county surveyors sat down and established a set of fees they would all charge, that's collusion and price fixing.

As a side note, A govt job was bid by a lot of surveyors and the bids were from the low 5 figures to into the 6 figure area. Many const staking jobs have a substantial range of bid amounts.
About that time I needed 5 trees trimmed and I got 4 or 5 bids, all were between $1500 and $1700. I'm guessing the landscapers know something we don't.

[Jim Frame]

The site Mark references is good source of information on the subject. The sidebar features synopses of the different kinds of antitrust violations:

Price Fixing: an agreement among competitors that raises, lowers, or stabilizes prices or competitive terms

Bid Rigging: competitors agree in advance which firm will win the bid

Market Division or Customer Allocation: an agreement among competitors to assign sales territories or customers

Group Boycotts: an agreement among competitors not to do business with targeted individuals or businesses

Note the element common to each: an agreement to engage in anticompetitive behavior. There's nothing there about merely sharing information; absent an agreement (expressed or demonstrably implied), there's no violation.

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[Jim Frame]

Any data exchange or statistical reporting that includes current prices, or information that identifies data from individual competitors, can raise antitrust concerns if it encourages more uniform prices than otherwise would exist.

Same quote, different emphasis. If a forum thread were started with the express or demonstrably implied intent of fixing prices, that thread would likely constitute illegal activity. But that's not what's been going on.

I no longer have access to the original post in this thread, but my recollection is that the poster wanted to know approximate or typical chargeout rates for the Bay Area. I got the sense that his goal was to estimate the cost of a job, but nothing in his text indicated an intent or even a desire to engage in anticompetitive behavior; likely just the opposite, he wanted to compete.

Similarly, when I posted my chargeout rates, I didn't do so with a desire or intent to fix prices, I did so merely to emphasize that publication of chargeout rates -- even in a forum sponsored by a professional association -- isn't illegal activity, or even close to it.

My view of the actions of the Central Office is very different from yours. I'd like to see the written policy, including specific evaluation criteria, under which member posts are being censored. The ad hoc approach being followed at present is unacceptable.

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[David Lanphear]

I'd like to see the written policy, including specific evaluation criteria, under which member posts are being censored. The ad hoc approach being followed at present is unacceptable.

Jim,

When one registers for the board there is a statement that one has to agree to to continue the process. The last statement basically states that CLSA can remove, edit or move any post for any reason.

To see the statement in its entirety log out and go to register. It is the first screen you will be taken to.

Also I see that the admin post has been edited (although not flagged as such) toning down the reasoning, IMO.

[Jim Frame]

When one registers for the board there is a statement that one has to agree to to continue the process. The last statement basically states that CLSA can remove, edit or move any post for any reason.

I don't dispute the ability of CLSA staff to remove posts; what I'd like to see is a formal policy using objective criteria instead of willy-nilly on-the-fly anonymous decisions.

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[Warren Smith]

Does the posting of hourly billing rates constitute any kind of price for a potential project?
Pursuant to section 8759 of the PLSA, upon describing a scope of services, a contract to provide survey services will state a cost and a clause for additional work per modified agreement based, say, upon an attached hourly rate schedule.
Collusion would occur if a list of set costs for specified work products was propounded, and a conspiracy among practitioners was entered into to adhere to that list.

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

I asked my Dentist how she knows how much to charge for various services such as a filling, cleaning, etc.

She said we go to conventions and ask each other, "how much do you charge for fillings?" etc.

I'm sure the cost of maintaining a Dental office must enter in at some point. A Dentist in Cheapsville should be able to charge less than one in San Francisco, for example.

[Jim Frame]

*****This post was removed by the Administrator to avoid inadvertent anti-trust issues.*****

[dmi]

My hairs is on fire. Are you happy now?

[land butcher]

I asked my Dentist how she knows how much to charge for various services such as a filling, cleaning, etc.

She said we go to conventions and ask each other, "how much do you charge for fillings?" etc.

I'm sure the cost of maintaining a Dental office must enter in at some point. A Dentist in Cheapsville should be able to charge less than one in San Francisco, for example.

I don't remember the name, this happened 30 years ago, but I had a issue between my dentist and my insurance co. My dentist used a State medical insurance reference and called local dentists to set his rates.

There is one for doctors also.

[Michael Butcher]

The decision to pull a post or to ask the author if they would pull their own post was based upon a genuine concern for liability to CLSA, and immediate action was required.

I do not share or agree with many of the beliefs that Dave Woolley has expressed in his post regarding the CLSA, the Executive Committee, and Central Office, nor, IMHO, has he captured all that was discussed at the Board of Directors meeting regarding the CLSA Forums.

I look forward to further discussion at the Board of Directors meeting on July 27th.

Michael Butcher
2013 CLSA President

[E_Page]

But do professionals typically advertise their rates? I don't recall ever seeing a doctor or lawyer or other professionals doing so. Professionals don't tend to get in low bidding wars with the competition, they set a rate based on a number of factors and for the most part leave it alone, right? Are the rules different for us than they are for everyone else?

Doctors don't because what they charge for typical services changes depending upon which insurance the patient is covered by, or if the patient is a cash customer. They don't post their rates because it is just way too confusing.

Dentists will also often advertise rates for common services.

Lawyers post rates and prices all the time. $XXX for bancruptcy, $XXX for an uncontested divorce. Most have set rates for hourly work and charge in 1/10th of an hour increments. Some post their hourly rates on line.

Posting rates does not equal collusion. I have not read the link that Woodcutter posted. It would not surprise me to find that there is some specific definition in the law regarding discussion within professional societies. Such a prohibition would make no sense, but this is CA. It doesn't need to make sense, it only needs to have been a made up issue designed to score political points in some legislator's district at some time. But generally, it's just as Jim Frame explained it.