Monumenting easements (ROS required)?

[MikeTurnrose]

Hello.

I did an ROS of a lot in a recorded subdivision 5 years ago with monuments set at the corners. The adjacent owner is going to be granted an access easement over the lot I surveyed before. They are requesting markers at the edge of the easement. The edge of the easement is not necessarily parallel to the existing lot lines. So would this trigger an ROS under 8762 (d)? In my opinion, yes. However, if the easement was made parallel with existing lot lines, maybe not?? What is the opinion of others here? Thanks.

[Anthony Maffia]

IIRC, when this was discussed a few years ago, the consensus was that easements didn't affect the boundary and so no ROS was required. Of course, some think that foundation construction stakes require a Corner Record.

[LS 4722]

...However, if the easement was made parallel with existing lot lines, maybe not?? What is the opinion of others here? Thanks.

An easement boundary is an area that shows the limits of the use line. It is not a title line.

Would you file an RS for a lease area?

File a CR and move on.

[pls7809]

PLS Act 8762 (b)(5) The points or lines set during the performance of a field survey of any parcel described in any deed or other instrument of title recorded in the county recorder’s office are not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey.

I would argue that you would need to do an RS based on 8763(b)(5). If an easement is not an "other instrument of title" then what is? An easement obviously doesn't carry all the "sticks in the bundle" that a fee grant does, but there is title interest involved. Easement holders have to be specifically mentioned on subdivision maps. If there is no title interest in an easement, then why would you have to do that?

[Stephen Johnson]

PLS Act 8762 (b)(5) The points or lines set during the performance of a field survey of any parcel described in any deed or other instrument of title recorded in the county recorder’s office are not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey.

I would argue that you would need to do an RS based on 8763(b)(5). If an easement is not an "other instrument of title" then what is? An easement obviously doesn't carry all the "sticks in the bundle" that a fee grant does, but there is title interest involved. Easement holders have to be specifically mentioned on subdivision maps. If there is no title interest in an easement, then why would you have to do that?

Ryan,

An easement is NOT an instrument of title. It IS an instrument of license of use.

Easements are shown because they limit the underlying estates' USE of the land, not TITLE of the land.

[MikeTurnrose]

Thanks for all your responses. It appears that there is a difference of opinion here. I think the law is vague and should be amended to include a clause that deals specifically with easements and rights of way. If you read the "letter of the law" then, in my case, an ROS should be filed, because this easement would be lines and points not shown on a record map.

David,

In response to one of your questions, a Corner Record could be filed and then a second surveyor would know the monuments exist, right?

Also, I don't really care if I have to file an ROS or a CR. I just need to present a proposal to my client that I think is fair and in compliance with the law. However, I don't want my client to have to pay for something that may be unnecessary.

[D Ryan]

Mike,

First off, you may want to update your version of the PLS Act. They switched all the letters to numbers a few years back. (I think most of us could cite sub-sections a through e in our sleep and someone had the brilliant idea to change it).

My reply won't be in relation to the larger issue of the title of your thread, but to the specific case at hand. My gut feeling reading the original LS Act up to today's, is they simply didn't answer the question whether this type of easement was intended to be included. If the landowner has a need for permanent monumentation of this easement, why not set pipes and file the survey? Any durable monument with your number on it to mark a boundary triggers the filing. If those lines don't show on an existing survey, I don't think a Corner Record cuts it. The more generic issue of any "requirement" to set durable monuments and file some type of record for easements is not a black and white issue.

Side note: a license is revocable by the giver of the license, whereas an easement is not, and is therefor not a license.

Dave Ryan,
Eureka, Ca

[dmi]

"...any parcel described in any deed..." ?

[pls7809]

An easement deed is still a deed is it not?

[MikeTurnrose]

Yes, I do need to update my PLS Act version. I've got the CLSA binder with all the laws, but it's several years old.

[MikeTurnrose]

D Ryan,

Yes, I do need to update my PLS Act version. I have the CLSA binder, but it's several years old.

D Wooley,

I will try and make that meeting when you're here and maybe we can talk about this more. Thanks.

[Michael J Foley]

Holding the question related to ROS or not aside, Would you set your LS number on the monuments for the easement? Is that not what the client is looking for? A legal marker showing the professionals opinion as to the location of the record easement?

In the past I have set alum disk with my company name on it at the corner of easements that are not parallel to a p/l. Not sure if I punched my LS number on them or not. The client never got back to me on the issue.

Most other times the client just wants to have an idea as to the location so they can see if someone is using the easement in the correct place or not or to drop gravel in the correct place.

I have not been involved in any court legal issues regarding easement locations marked in the field, so the issue has not come up as to setting LS tags on the corners.

...thoughts and I don't mean the B&P code, be honest about what is the local practice.

[LS 4722]

PLS Act 8762 (b)(5) The points or lines set during the performance of a field survey of any parcel described in any deed or other instrument of title recorded in the county recorder’s office are not shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey....

First off let me clarify that the *ridiculous* part of the message heading is in context of reading the words of the act and leaving common sense in the kitchen drawer.

If you want to adhere to a strict dead letter interpretation of the act, then please do the following:

Every time you set curb stakes X offset to a R/W line that terminates at a deed cut line prod... File an RS. Also, tag the stakes.

[pls7809]

In response to Michael Foley's post:

I think 8772 of B&P is pretty clear:

Any monument set by a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer to mark or reference a point on a property or land line shall be permanently and visibly marked or tagged with the certificate number of the surveyor or civil engineer setting it, each number to be preceded by the letters “L.S.” or “R.C.E.,” respectively, as the case may be or, if the monument is set by a public agency, it shall be marked with the name of the agency and the political subdivision it serves.

Any monument set to mark or reference a PL or Land Line. An easement line is a land line. Regardless of local practice, the law says the monuments shall be marked with the tag number. The client would not know that unless they were familiar with 8772. Is not the law the minimum level of practice?

[pls7809]

Paul,

If I have to establish that deed line to determine where the curb stakes go, then I will file a map and monument that line. The curb stakes themselves don't require a tag. If I don't follow the letter of the law, then I am risking a board action against me when some other surveyor finds my no reference tags and turns me in to PPC or the Board. I'm not willing to go there.

[LS 4722]

Paul,

If I have to establish that deed line to determine where the curb stakes go, then I will file a map and monument that line. The curb stakes themselves don't require a tag. If I don't follow the letter of the law, then I am risking a board action against me when some other surveyor finds my no reference tags and turns me in to PPC or the Board. I'm not willing to go there.

I agree, the stakes do not need tags. So, how could another following surveyor (remember, were talking about construction stakes) find your tag when none was set?

Is there actually a surveyor in Calif that would follow a construction stake line hoping to recover *evidence* for the purpose to report another surveyor to the board or local ppc? I sure hope not.

Does a curb run terminus on a deed line need to be closer than a few tenths? If it does not, then why go to the trouble, and cost your client needless expense with tagged monuments and an RS preparation and filing fee, on establishing precisely where a deed line falls so a concrete crew can pour a curb end +/- 0.01'?

Lets get some common sense back into the discussion

[LS 4722]

How would a surveyor know it is within a few tenths with out performing a boundary survey?

Please keep in mind my answers and comments are based a lot on my experiences in the area I practice in, Los Angeles County.

To answer your question, the agency approved street improvement plans would have already solved the problem of where the curb begins and ends with stationing..

[LS 4722]

....When surveyors are out there winging it (guessing lines to be within a few tenths-applying their common sense) therein lies the problem for the public. DWoolley

Yep..that's me. Eyeball and wings... is that an old fence line I see? Lets stop the curb here.

DAMN! The station hit's that old fence line prod within a few tenths.. Time to survey the whole neighborhood, charge the client an arm, umm, wing and a leg, file an RS and remind everyone that it's being done for the publics good!

[JoeC]

First of all, I think we have to look at what the spirit of the law says and what its intent is. The laws are made to protect the interest of the public. If you feel that a record of survey does that - then file one.

In my opinion (in this case) if you are setting temporary points to define an easement so your client can see were his easement is, then I don’t think you need to file a RS.

Mike you are a professional, use your professional opinion.

[land butcher]

First of all, I think we have to look at what the spirit of the law says and what its intent is. The laws are made to protect the interest of the public. If you feel that a record of survey does that - then file one.

In my opinion (in this case) if you are setting temporary points to define an easement so your client can see were his easement is, then I don’t think you need to file a RS.

Mike you are a professional, use your professional opinion.

But if your professional opinion is not the same as the boards then you are in deep Ka Ka.
It is very unfortunate that almost everything we do, both as surveyors and citizens, has to meet someone elses dotted i's and crossed t's exactly. Even now a HS student can't respond to a drunk friends request for a ride home without being tossed off the volleyball team she was captain of. And the incident was totally off campus.

Zero tolerance equals zero common sense.

Set some 1x2's take cash only and drive home.

[dmi]

I knew it was coming. I was wondering when you'd go there. LOL

[LS 4722]

JoeC,

I have a couple of questions:

1.) Will you define temporary points?

2.) Is the setting of temporary points exclusive to an easement or does the logic extend to fee lines also?

LS 4722, I like your clever comments. Now we're both likely to be one step closer to being banned under the new rules. Like me, you're probably really offended by our back and forth. I suggest in the future you "d) Make a personal commitment to learning about, understanding, and supporting your peers."-in accordance with the new rules.

DWoolley

I like sparring with you Wooley. As far as

Make a personal commitment to learning about, understanding, and supporting your peers

well, no can do!

My commitment scale is already tipped towards my fiancée. She is Mandarin and I have a full plate just keeping up with her. Maybe CLSA could install a "Take a number(digital of course) stand in line" for any open commitments by you or by me, but I would not hold my breath waiting for me

[Dave Karoly, PLS]

Woolley made a funny LOL.

I never got the surveyors that are touchy about the back and forth on forums, we are surveyors for crying out loud, we are supposed to be cantankerous and sarcastic like that. Let the engineers be all professional and technical like they have to calculate it up before they make love to their wife.

I do admit I've let comments get under my skin here and there, I'm only human.

[MikeTurnrose]

Looks like the client doesn't want the expense of permanent monuments--so I think I wont' be filing an ROS on this. There is really no benefit to the public here. I already have an ROS for the P/Ls.

Joe C,

With all due respect, I think one of the functions of this board is to get the professional opinion of other surveyors. For us one man shops with part time help, this resource is invaluable. I don't have a staff or other LS folks to run things by on a regular basis. This board, my local chapter and personal friends who are LSs, is it for me. I understand, in the end, I am the one responsible for making a decision, but having other professional opinions to evaluate is essential. Please consider this.

Thanks.

[land butcher]

With all due respect, I think one of the functions of this board is to get the professional opinion of other surveyors. For us one man shops with part time help, this resource is invaluable. I don't have a staff or other LS folks to run things by on a regular basis. This board, my local chapter and personal friends who are LSs, is it for me. I understand, in the end, I am the one responsible for making a decision, but having other professional opinions to evaluate is essential. Please consider this.

I agree and even in big companies sometimes professionals will outwardly agree with a higher up when they really don't totally agree.

It would be nice if there was some way to reference these discussions when someone gets cited by the board as this inet board proves that things are not always black and white. It doesn't always resolve the initial question but makes public the amount of grey area we have to work in. It's impossible to enact laws to cover each and every instance and what EVERYONE needs is more common sense and less nit-picky interpretation of the rules/laws.

Regarding these grey area discussions; I don't know where everyone on here works, public/private but I get the impression that private surveyors are taking into consideration their client's needs and budget along with their own legal responsibility. On the flip side pubic surveyors tend to lean toward "if in doubt do the work" and I think this comes from public agencies not tied to specific budget constraints and even if they go over budget they still get the same paycheck.