questions regarding Elevation Certificate

[sako]

I emailed following questions to the FEMA's engineer in charge of Region 9, since I havn't got any answers yet, I thought I post them here, hopefully I get your opinion on these issues:


1- If the BFE is not determined, (or not shown on FIRM) for a certain property, is there any law that requires the communities to provide it?

2- The BFE shown on FIRM represent rounded whole-foot elevations, yet the elevations in Items C2.a-h must be entered to the nearest tenth of a foot, doesn't this work to disadvantage of home owners?
for example, a house with FF of 99.9' in an area with BFE of 100' will not be cleared, even though the BFE might have been 99.6' and rounded to 100'.

3- In order to have elevations in FIRM datum, I have been using the program VERTCON to convert from NGVD29 to NAVD88 for cities (like San Jose) with Benchmarks in old datum. When possible, I have used the Benchmarks of Santa Clara Valley Water District (SCVWD) instead, since they are in NAVD88 datum. In one recent case, the City of San Jose benchmark which is identical to the SCVWD Benchmark was 0.4' higher, after converting the NGVD29 elevation to NAVD88 datum. Is the VERTCON a reliable software to use?

[PE_PLS]

You should be using the FIS (Flood insurance study) to determine flood elevations along waters if possible. The flood insurance studies usually are good enough for interpolation of the BFE to the nearest 0.1'

[Jim Frame]

If the BFE is not determined, (or not shown on FIRM) for a certain property, is there any law that requires the communities to provide it?

None of which I'm aware. In my experience, you need to have a drainage study done -- though it can be of limited extent -- by a civil engineer in order to get a BFE when none is shown on the FIRM. (If the certificate isn't going to be used to obtain an insurance rating, there are other options available, but you want to be sure you're not setting your client up for trouble in the future.)

Is the VERTCON a reliable software to use?

VERTCON has limitations. There are some areas in which the modeling is not good, and NGS recommends that you test an assortment of bench marks around your area of interest to see if the conversion is consistent. The other thing to watch for is subsidence. VERTCON is not reliable in a subsiding area.

[Tom Milo]

If you are talking about Zone A, it will not have a BFE determined. You can still fill out the form including Section E on page 2.

I believe that AH zones are usually near a creek and a FIS study may be available, but not all creeks have an FIS study.

[steffan]

One thing to be aware of when using Section E of the flood cert is the caution shown in the instructions which state:

"Buildings in Zone A (without BFE) may qualify for a lower insurance rate if an engineered BFE is developed at the site."

Another consideration is that for many zone A locations, the FIRM boundaries are often based on approximate methods and low resolution topography. Neither the FIRM mapping for zone A (no BFE), nor the utilization of Section E of the elev cert will provide the owner of a structure with an accurate assessment of the risks associated with living in or adjacent to a flood hazard.

Determining a structure's relationship to an accurate BFE will provide an accurate risk assessment which may result in potentially significant savings in flood insurance rates, complete removal from a flood zone designation or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, awakening the invested owner to the true risks and the subsequent exploration of remediation.

I recommend reading the FEMA publication 265 found here:

http://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/ ... rm_zna.pdf

I recommend that surveyor's who provide elevation certs for zone A properties have a good understanding of the NFIP and the various options which should be discussed with their clients as part of that service.

Jeff Steffan, L.S., P.E.

[Tom Milo]

Several insurance companies recently conveyed to me that FEMA is requiring an elevation certificate in order to renew or purchase flood insurance, regardless of what zone the property lies.

That said, for zone A, an elevation certificate may be useful in determining the insurance rate, but will not help get out of the flood zone or get a LOMA.

[PLS7393]

Several insurance companies recently conveyed to me that FEMA is requiring an elevation certificate in order to renew or purchase flood insurance, regardless of what zone the property lies.

That is news to me Tom. I was informed that the regulations changed Oct. 1, 2013 requiring an elevation certificate for all transactions involving properties in the special hazard flood zone (100 yr flood). This makes sense since the elevation certificates are a detailed document for each individual parcel.

Any questions SAKO or others have will be good to bring up at this years Conference in San Diego where FEMA will be talking on Elevation Certificates.

See you in San Diego!

[land butcher]

We need Wendy Lathrop on here.

[hellsangle]

Recently we attended a Elevation Seminar for insurance agents. Wonderful information on "the other side" of what happens to our Elev. Certs.

http://www.h2opartnersusa.com/nfip-training/video/

H20Partnersusa.com is a wonderful resource for training and a wealth of information.

If you have the opportunity of attending one of these seminars - GO! Many 'war stories' from those in attendance . . . i.e. realtors, mortgage brokers, insurance agents and flood plain managers from cities/etc.

Editorial: Because of the Biggert-Waters Act of 2012 . . . we witnessed some costly stories of very(!) expensive change in rates. (BTW - if the changes aren't made and these funds could dry up - there may not be any Flood Insurance. As much as I love New Oleans - it should go the way of Atlantis . . . and I'm not referring to the one in Reno! lol)

Because these rates are going through the roof - DO NOT TAKE ELEVATION CERTIFICATES LIGHTLY. They require careful collection of data. (Liken a sometimes difficult boundary.)

Best to all.

Phil - Sonoma

[steffan]

Speaking of

[steffan]

Speaking of Biggert-Waters, the U.S. House of Representatives passed H.R. 3370 (Grimm-Waters) last night which has some big ramifications on both the Biggert-Waters legislation and on FEMA's flood mapping operations.

[sako]

If you are talking about Zone A, it will not have a BFE determined. You can still fill out the form including Section E on page 2.

I believe that AH zones are usually near a creek and a FIS study may be available, but not all creeks have an FIS study.

Tom,
That's true with Ah zones, in my case the BFE contour lines are shown on the FIRM , what makes it hard to interpolate is the green dots (hatched), you can't even find the house you're surveying. )n the other side, since the BFE is rounded up on FEMA , the interpolation doesn't need to be accurate.

[PLS7393]

Because these rates are going through the roof - DO NOT TAKE ELEVATION CERTIFICATES LIGHTLY. They require careful collection of data. (Liken a sometimes difficult boundary.)

So true Phil, and I only hope others preparing elevation certificates do not give these away as cheap surveys like I found out tonight by a potential client. I was asked to match a quote from an out of state firm that contracts with local surveyors. What are the laws for surveyors contracting with out of state firms?

As low as their quote was, they definitely are not using compatible rates for the Bay Area, and you better believe I am not that cheap! This is very similar to the discussion we had about out of state ALTA maps, and the company has a similar relation to one title company we talked about.

Sorry for high-jacking your thread, but lets see what discussion this starts.

[land butcher]

I found out a local surveyor did one in Orange County for $400.

Less than my CPA charged for doing my tax forms, and I spent less than 45min with him. And it was all but printed out when I left.

[Tom Milo]

I would be careful about stating pricing. Don't want to be accused if price fixing. I charge what I think will cover my cost and provide some profit. Others may charge more, some less. I have gone through the exercise I figuring my overhead and have calculated my charge rates. Some clients think I'm charging too much, others thought it was a fair price. Of course it does not help when our friends the real estate agent say an el cert should only cost $150.

[land butcher]

It's after the fact so it's like posting bid results.
An article by Jeff Lucas in Mar POB "Many surveyors reply to me that there is no money to be made in boundary surveying".
WHY? Because surveyors do not charge enough. The very people complaining about no money in it.
It costs ~10% of selling price to sell a house, why? Because the RE agents, Title company, taxes, are ALL based on a percent of the sale price, the RE agent if they represent both the buyer and seller (No conflict of interest) can earn 3.5% of the sale, more if they are the broker too.
Fees should be based on exposure, like title ins, and time involved. Think how much you could make doing a ALTA on a $7.5million house in Dana Point charging a measly 1%. You say that's a lot, but what is your exposure when surveying property valued at $1000/sq ft?

[rkinnie]

Remember to use SCVWD Benchmarks ( they are prevalent and easy to find on the web site) as they are run twice a year and adjusted for subsidence - some cities update too but NGS points are useless unless they were part of a height mod - I found one 3 feet off once
That 0.4 foot difference is common if you use old datum points with vertcon
SCVWD is trying to maintain heights by pumping reclaimed water back into the aquifer
My two cents