What is to become of the Land Surveyor?

mfarrauto · Post by **mfarrauto** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:42 pm

Found this on the SPAR website, comments?

http://www.sparpointgroup.com/Blogs/Con ... Surveyor-/

Confessions of a Hired Gun

What is to become of the Land Surveyor?

Sam Billingsley
3/27/2014 4:38:12 PM
What is to become of the Land Surveyor? In the interest of full disclosure I must admit that I am one. However, it's been years since I worked on a project that required me to use my stamp. I can unequivocally state that this is one problem of many that are keeping surveyors up at night. The long and the short of it is that without some major changes in state laws, surveyor mentality, and marketing I think that the profession will die out. In fact, I'd argue that it is already dying in many states. I was at the Tennessee Association of Professional Surveyors conference last week and it was the first time in a while that I was one of the younger people in the room. My opinion is definitely not shared by all surveyors. Iâ€™ve met plenty that are quick to tell me that the state licensing programs were created to solve problems that will begin again if we abandon the system. I donâ€™t necessarily disagree, Iâ€™m just not sure that there is enough work that requires the use of a licensed surveyor to make it worth the effort for a lot of us.

Various states are trying different things to keep surveyors in the position of esteem and marketability that they possessed in the 1960's and 70's. Some are now requiring a college degree in order to sit for the test, others are looking at apprenticeship programs or more stringent continuing education programs to reduce the number of licensed surveyors in the hopes that a supply side shortage will drive wages back up. Are they just looking to get rich? I don't think so. It seems to me that the goal is simply to maintain the avocation as a profession in which a person can earn a middle to upper middle class living. The situation is similar to that with teachers here in the US. In many states the pay is simply not in line with the required education, the level of responsibility, the potential liability, and the amount of paperwork required by the various licensing boards. While arguments can be made that teachers are in this position through no fault of their own while surveyors are here due to their unwillingness to embrace change, the reality is that many of us had nothing to do with the survey boards' decisions to not embrace GPS and GIS 20 to 30 years ago.

However, we will be responsible for how these boards react to laser scanning, mobile LiDAR, UASs, crowd sourcing, and so on.

The one thing that we surveyors seem to be able to agree upon is that anything that requires a legal description, courthouse documentation, and property boundaries is ours and ours alone (excepting states that allow licensed engineers to do the same). The problem that I have is that that alone is not enough work to support a company. I know of owner/operators that are making a living doing this but they are typically working out of their home or have an office with less than 5 employees. Of course, today a licensed surveyor with a smartphone, laptop and a robotic total station can replace what was a secretary and a three person survey crew in years past. While this is an improvement to the surveyorâ€™s bottom line it also has a downside. Many of us learned how to survey by working on those survey crews and if there is one complaint that you hear over and over again from older surveyors it's that the younger generation are great "button pushers" but they don't understand the art of surveying; the legal and historical aspects of the profession. The reality is while I have my license, if I had to choose between being a great "button pusher" that could perform very accurate measurements and a licensed land surveyor that was still collecting data one point at a time, I'd be pushing buttons. There is less liability, and a lot more work.

So, what is the answer? I'm really not sure. Perhaps new standards are needed. The original standards were set up for the convenience of the general public. You see this argument used a lot when surveyors denigrate GIS people. "They are not accurate enough", "It's too crude". The reality is that they are not as accurate because they do not have to be. The client is not asking for sub-centimeter accuracy, they want hundreds of assets per person per day. Just because I can be more accurate doesn't mean that streamlining my workflow so that I can lower the cost with a lower accuracy survey is below me.

In reality, I am performing "surveys" every week that are way more accurate than the standards set up by the survey boards. Laser scanning cut its teeth on engineering grade mapping, I can't tell you how many times I've had to teach a licensed surveyor how to accurately run a control network in a plant environment because his typical workflow was not accurate enough for scanning. Perhaps something akin to an ALTA survey for engineering systems or BIM creation could be adopted as a simpler solution to writing out specifics in each and every contract. There has to be an advantage to the client for using a licensed surveyor or he/she will not bother to do so.

I do know that surveyors and their boards need to embrace newer technologies at a better rate than they have historically. Iâ€™ve opined many times that we are becoming IT specialist. Until we surveyors and our representative licensing boards can find a way to redefine the licensed surveyor in this paradigm as opposed to the amount of dirt on his boots or his connections with the local Register of Deeds I will continue to consider myself to be a member of a dying profession.

mpallamary · Post by **mpallamary** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:47 pm

My point exactly.

mpallamary · Post by **mpallamary** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:56 pm

Where are we going?

Frank Romano PLS · Post by **Frank Romano PLS** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:57 pm

Very good articles. Every surveyor who views these posts should take the time to read them. We cannot educate ourselves enough in the law. The older I get the more fascinated the legal aspects of surveying becomes.

TTaylor · Post by **TTaylor** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:01 am

When I was the Chair of CLSA's Legislative Committee several years ago I wanted to address the distinction between what Land Surveyors do versus GIS people etc. The key distinction we came up with was making a statement of accuracy on survey data or maps. After a lot of work we got it signed into law as 8726 (n) of the Business and Professions code.

IMO, almost every GIS is a map. So, any statement of accuracy for these maps or on requirements of accuracy for the data collected for these maps has to be done by an LS.

Secondly, we LSs in CA have written the LSAct to be technology agnostic. I.e. we address the products produced and not the technology used to produce them.

Thirdly, I'll take the bait, MP, even though I think your statements of "measurement is dead" to be hyperbole at best with the intention of sparking debate on issues you have encountered w.r.t. the evaluation of measurement data on boundary type work. An important discussion to say the least. However, having been involved with well over $10 billion of public works projects over the years I have a different perspective on measurement. I.e. it is imperative that the LS involved with public works projects, geodetic control, and deformation monitoring must have a superior knowledge of error sources for their measurement data, ways to mitigate errors, and the knowledge to understand the actual accuracy and precision achieved.

That having been said, I do enjoy all of your articles as thought provoking and well written.

dewardkb · Post by **dewardkb** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:13 am

I am sorry but I do not buy into the need to fear some supposed impending demise of the Professional Land Surveyor due to advances in mapping and information integration through technology.

This has never been about what Land Surveying is at its core. Land Surveying is and always has been about finding order in chaos. About knowing the unknowable about placating the implacable.

I once accused a mentor of mine of communicating with the dead (because that was the only way he could have known certain things), now after 23 years of private practice other people now accuse me of having the same powers.

Yes it is about the law, yes it is about the field experience, yes it is about having imagination, yes it is about having critical thinking skills, yes it is about knowing history, etc.....but it has never been about measuring and those who say it was were never Professional Land Surveyors to begin with.

The need for a Professional Land Surveyor will never go away as long as men covet land. I laugh every time I see a GIS style map that depicts property boundaries because I know they are not real. Why? Because I have actually tried to find and found the corners depicted on those maps and I know that it will never be as easy as finding some coordinate on a map, no matter how good that map is.

mpallamary · Post by **mpallamary** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:37 am

Tom, you are of course correct. It is amazing how many people do not understand what I am trying to say. I am going to elaborate on this notion as soon as I get some time. I am playing a lot of catch up after my back injury. These are all wonderful comments and the dialogue great!

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:22 pm

It has always been my opinion that hands on is the best experience for anything. Having a 4 year degree will help you write your resume but in this age of button pushing not teach the basics to a proper survey.

Due to robotics and GPS we are no longer training our replacements. They are getting "educated" in a school then go on their own learning by trial and error and as such much basic info is overlooked. In the beginning of the EDM days my boss mentioned that by not chaining the line many points set in between the intersections are not found and could hold valuable info.

As with all legislation the entity with the most money gets the laws written their way. IMO the very people that we buy our equipment from are the ones undermining our profession by marketing to anyone who has the cash to buy their product and we don't have laws restricting that.

We carry way too much liability, both for the survey and the cost of getting maps recorded, for what we do.

In this economy our fees have been reduced to the equivalent of being paid in lira. We spent tens of thousands of dollars for the latest single operator equipment then lower our crew fee to a one man crew when in reality that robotic and related equipment costs the same as a starting apprentice. We lose and the client wins again.

If we are going to continue to work for peanuts expect to be treated a peanut eater not a peanut vendor.

Jim Frame · Post by **Jim Frame** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:58 pm

If we are going to continue to work for peanuts expect to be treated a peanut eater not a peanut vendor.

You might want to review your fee schedule and/or client mix. I may not be getting rich, but I'm not working for peanuts, either.

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:51 pm

Good posts.

I cannot help but be reminded of that old song about the monkey and the engineer:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PBmZMdq-kwM

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:18 pm

I don't live where and how I do working for peanuts.
I may be a independent whore, but not a cheap one.

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:58 pm

Point is you gotta know what you are measuring. There is a difference between the professional and the technician.

Any of us that went to university recall the lab and the lab report. Grotesque but nontheless a learning exercise.

And by the way, 50 thousand years of "real world" experience will not teach one to be a professional.

The monkey is the technician who is left with the throttle after the engineer went for lunch. The mess that ensued is that left after those those professionals have left their craft of measurement to the monkey.

hellsangle · Post by **hellsangle** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:50 am

Phil - Sonoma

dmi · Post by **dmi** » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:16 pm

The land surveying profession is walking dead right now.The clap of the sniper's rifle does not reach the target until long after the kill round has exploded the victim's skull.... we are in that moment of recognizing that we have been shot and waiting for our body to fall to the ground. Soon we'll be joining service station attendents ,grocery store check out clerks, street sweepers and everyone else every made redundant.

Have a nice day

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:21 am

(The official hyperbole thread.)

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:43 pm

Slow down.
Witness the rebirth following the holocaust.

E_Page · Post by **E_Page** » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:28 pm

Gloom, despair, and agony on me...

[Ooohhhh!]

Deep dark depression, excessive misery...

[Uuuuhnnn!]

If it weren't for bad luck I'd have no luck at all...

[Aaarrroooo]

Gloom, despair, and agony on me!

Some of you shouldda been on the porch, lamenting with Buck, Roy, and Junior.

Stephen Johnson · Post by **Stephen Johnson** » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:46 am

Evan,

I see you have been watching Hee Haw re-re-runs again. I thought you had that under control.

;)

California Surveyors Forums

What is to become of the Land Surveyor?

What is to become of the Land Surveyor?

Measurement is Dead

Well said, Clark . . .

It is dead already