Durable Monument

[scarpa]

What, in your opinion, defines durable monument?
• 1-1/4" iron pipe (6â€￾ to 36â€￾ long)
• 3/4" rebar (6â€￾ to 36â€￾ long)
• MAG nail (1/2â€￾ to 2-1/2â€￾ long)
• Concrete nail
• Spike – railroad, gin or bridge (6â€￾ to 12â€￾ long)
• 2â€￾x2â€￾ wood hub (with hub tack, of course)
• 6â€￾x6â€￾x42â€￾ concrete Caltrans monument (my favorite)
• Any of the above in a monument well
• Other

Does durable translate to the monument lasting one month, one year, ten years, fifty years, or one-hundred plus years?

Also, I am interested in what the standard of practice is in your “neck of the woodsâ€￾ and why that practice exists. What does your local public agency require?

[Warren Smith]

Jon,

All the above (except for the 2x2 hub) would be durable, depending on site conditions.

Drilled lead and tag is appropriate in concrete.

The default pipe size around here is 3/4" x 30".

I have set many 2" galvanized IPs, concreted filled. They don't stand up to D9s, however ...

[pls7809]

It all depends on the soil or surface you are setting the monument in.

I think Bryan Taylor mentioned on here before that he found old redwood posts or hubs that outlasted pipes set in wetter areas.

[Jim Frame]

As others have noted, it depends on the situation, which is the reason the statute doesn't attempt to specify particular materials.

To address a couple of specific situations in which, in my opinion, the monument doesn't meet the durability test:

1. A PK nail or a Mag Nail set in the surface of a public road paved with asphaltic concrete. The heavy equipment that is routinely active in public streets -- e.g. green waste loaders, backhoes, heavy trucks -- can too easily disturb or entirely remove these. In addition, they're so small that they likely won't be noticed prior to or in the course of demolition activities, rendering them more susceptible to disturbance or removal than would a more robust monument.

2. A brass tag epoxied to a concrete paver. This is a pet peeve of mine ever since one of these, complete with Corner Record, replaced one of my 1" brass disks that had been drilled and countersunk into a concrete sidewalk. I don't consider an epoxied tag to be durable in any area subject to foot or vehicle traffic, but when the thing it's glued to is only about 6"x8" the result is even more pathetic. I referred this instance to the local PPC a couple of years ago, but never heard anything further. I walk past that monument every week or so, and it grates on me every time I see it.

[Steve Martin]

Since any monument set by a Licensed Land Surveyor has to be permanently and visably marked with his or her LS number, that should be a condition in the definition of a durable monument.

So a concrete nail does not meet the definition of a durable survey monument, nor the hub and tack.

Yellow plastic caps discolor, crack and become unreadable in just a few years in the sun. A wildfire will completely obliterate them, leaving an untagged rebar or open pipe, not too durable in my opinion.

[subman]

For Subdivisions, we define the durability standard in local ordinance as follows (does not apply to non-subdivision field surveys); i.e. ROS,CR):

21.20.020 Boundary monuments—Location and materials.

Each final map or parcel map shall show durable monuments found or set at or near each boundary corner and at intermediate points, approximately 1,000 feet apart, or at such lesser distances as may be made necessary by topography or culture to insure accuracy in the reestablishment of any point or line without unreasonable difficulty. The precise position and the character of each such monument shall be shown on such map. Such durable monument shall be not less substantial than an iron pipe of a two-inch outside diameter, not less than two and one-half feet in length, with plug and tack, and set at least two feet into the ground, or of such other character and stability as may be approved by the county engineer. For the purpose of this Title 21, a lead and tack set in permanent concrete or masonry shall be considered as a durable monument. The approximate elevation of the top of each such monument with respect to the surface of the ground shall be shown on said map.
(Ord. 9071 § 11 (part), 1966: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 112, 1945.)

21.20.030 Street centerline monuments.
A.
Whenever necessary in the opinion of the county surveyor, centerline monuments shall be set to mark the intersections of streets, intersections of streets with the tract boundary, or to mark either the beginning and end of curves or the points of intersection of tangents thereof, or other intermediate points.
B.
Each such monument shall be not less durable and substantial than:
1.
In asphaltic concrete or cement concrete pavements, a lead and track;
2.
In unsurfaced graveled or oiled surfaces, a two-inch iron pipe set not less than 12 inches below the surface, or at such depth as may be approved by the county surveyor;
3.
In bituminous macadam pavements, a spike not less than six inches long.

(Ord. 5584 § 4 (part) 1952: Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 113, 1945.)

21.20.040 Centerline intersection monuments—Notes to county surveyor.
A.
For each centerline intersection monument set, the engineer or surveyor under whose supervision the survey has been made shall furnish to the county surveyor a set of notes showing clearly the ties between such monument and a sufficient number (normally four) of durable distinctive reference points or monuments.
B.
Such reference points or monuments may be leads and tacks in sidewalks, or two-inch by two-inch stakes set back of the curbline and below the surface of the ground, or such substitute therefor as appears to be not more likely to be disturbed.
C.
Such set of notes shall be of such quality, form and completeness, and shall be on paper of such quality and size, as may be necessary to conform to the standardized office records of the county surveyor. All such notes shall be indexed and filed by the county surveyor as a part of the permanent public records of this office.

(Ord. 4478 Art. 7 § 114, 1945.)

[Jim Frame]

For the purpose of this Title 21, a lead and tack set in permanent concrete or masonry shall be considered as a durable monument.

FWIW, a "lead and tack" doesn't comply with tagging requirements, even if it's only a point shown on a tie sheet. Do the L.A. codes explicitly define "lead and tack" as including a numbered tag?

[subman]

Jim

We agree. The ordinance is circa 1945. We are in the process of looking at clean up language and considering inclusion of well monuments in certain size subdivisions. We have a number of 1,000 -20,000 lot tentative maps in the pipeline and are looking at a more sustainable monument network model from a preservation standpoint in lieu of the historical subdivision S&W CL monuments that get disrupted due to paving projects (tied out and reset); no longer being "original monuments".

Thanks for your keen eye for detail!

[E_Page]

Any of those monuments could be considered durable under differing circumstances. As Ryan brought up, even the redwood hub can be more durable than a non-galvanized iron monument under certain circumstances.

In most cases, a sunstantial iron pipe and brass cap is hard to beat, but in some situations, the best, most durable object that you are physically able to place may be a nail with a small tag, and it may remain in place for 100+ yrs. That same nail & tag placed in soil is certainly not durable and may be wiped out by the rodman scuffing his boot over it as he heads toward the next point to mark.

[btaylor]

I almost never set a c-nail and brass tag for a property line marker, but yesterday the only thing that worked on top of a CMU wall was just that very thing.

I bet that nail and tag will last longer than the rebar and the 1" iron pipe I set on other places of that line, since the client will put up a retaining wall and inevitably the construction will never fail to take out the metal markers.

I think the only real decent type of monument is a pipe set in a large concreted mass that is too large for a laborer to dig out by hand.

[Jim Frame]

considering inclusion of well monuments in certain size subdivisions

Well monuments, while pricey at the outset, are the closest thing to permanent that I've seen. Minor maintenance operations don't bother them, and road construction crews seem to accord them the same sacrosanct status as the other things they resemble, e.g. water and gas valves. Their high visibility helps ensure that the covers get raised during repaves, and when it's time for a complete road rebuild they get included in the project plans as an R&R item under the supervision of a someone licensed to survey. Finally, their relatively high cost represents a small increment to the overall subdivision construction budget, so as long as the jurisdiction requires them as part of the standard plans and specifications, the cost is accepted by the subdivider as an incidental item.

[LS 4722]

FWIW, a "lead and tack" doesn't comply with tagging requirements, even if it's only a point shown on a tie sheet. Do the L.A. codes explicitly define "lead and tack" as including a numbered tag?

Just a lead/nail c/l tie monument will not work for subdivisions for LA City, the lead has to be tagged.

[pls7809]

Well monuments, while pricey at the outset, are the closest thing to permanent that I've seen. Minor maintenance operations don't bother them, and road construction crews seem to accord them the same sacrosanct status as the other things they resemble, e.g. water and gas valves. Their high visibility helps ensure that the covers get raised during repaves, and when it's time for a complete road rebuild they get included in the project plans as an R&R item under the supervision of a someone licensed to survey. Finally, their relatively high cost represents a small increment to the overall subdivision construction budget, so as long as the jurisdiction requires them as part of the standard plans and specifications, the cost is accepted by the subdivider as an incidental item.

We just dug out about 10 monument wells that had been paved over in a local city down here. They now have 10 - 10" diameter and 6" to 12" deep holes in their formerly un-potholed street. The paving was at least a year old, so they weren't coming back to raise those well lids up to the surface.

[btaylor]

We just dug out about 10 monument wells that had been paved over in a local city down here. They now have 10 - 10" diameter and 6" to 12" deep holes in their formerly un-potholed street. The paving was at least a year old, so they weren't coming back to raise those well lids up to the surface.

Yeah I just had to do this recently as well. It is not too surprising when you see how some of the street workers do their thing. Some will set ties all over the place so they can recover them, but others seem to rely on some random, unmarked system of recovery which translates into half the stuff not being brought to the new surface.

Other than that, one cannot argue with a street monument in casing with cover. Lately I cannot get any type of basic control to survive in a street more than a couple of years, since it seems like cities are into significant repaving projects.

I then was drilling reference crosses in seemingly new handicap ramp areas, but these last few years they are blowing those out for those new truncated dome types of ramps.

[Jim Frame]

We just dug out about 10 monument wells that had been paved over in a local city down here.

It happens, I've had to do the same thing on occasion. If the local agency chooses not to comply with legal requirements, there's not a lot an individual can do other than file a complaint. But for the most part the wells are too big to ignore, and the lids get raised during a repave.

Those gaping holes you left in the street will likely get someone's attention, so maybe the city will get real and fulfill its legal obligation.

[pls7809]

<Sarcasm on> It's the ultimate way to preserve a monument. You bury the well lid under pavement and no one can disturb that thing, aside from destroying the street. <Sarcasm off>

I agree Jim & Bryan. The well mons in streets are definitely the way to go. Much better than spikes with washers.

Personally I believe plastic plugs or caps used for tagging should be outlawed. I have used them in the past, but after a few years they are either too brittle and break or they melt from a fire. They are probably the least durable form of tagging there is.

[btaylor]

<Sarcasm on> It's the ultimate way to preserve a monument. You bury the well lid under pavement and no one can disturb that thing, aside from destroying the street. <Sarcasm off>

I agree Jim & Bryan. The well mons in streets are definitely the way to go. Much better than spikes with washers.

Personally I believe plastic plugs or caps used for tagging should be outlawed. I have used them in the past, but after a few years they are either too brittle and break or they melt from a fire. They are probably the least durable form of tagging there is.

I was doing aluminum caps on rebar for a bit, but went back to plastic. I may go back to aluminum caps, but I still greatly prefer putting them on iron pipe.

I find that the (basically two) companies that offer the caps for pipe make products that are not easy to use, or are simply not aesthetic. Bernsten's has to fit as if you did not mushroom the top of pipe at all, which is not realistic. I am not sure how one can use this unless you were to somehow saw the top portion of your pipe off after pounding it. SurvKaps is more "primitive" in that it wedges into the pipe in an odd way, which does not look good.

[RAM]

I think it depends on the situation, one works one does not. Plastic does work in some areas, here it is common to see plastic cap that are 30 or 40 years old in good condition, where the tag that was set in a plug in a IP is gone. How long is durable? 10, 20, 30 years? Fire? I have seen many alu. or brass caps that were nothing but a molten mass after a fire. What is a reasonable cost to spend for a monument? Here we do not have a reasonable supplier for IP. Either need to drive 50+ miles to get it yourself or pay extra to have it delivered. I favorite is drill steel, but due to lack of mining, drill steel is hard to find so that is going away. Maybe we could use recycled gun barrels that are confiscated during garden raids.

[Warren Smith]

Probably the most durable in these parts are the axles set 100 years ago. Apparently the early Model Ts went through those pretty rapidly. A visit to the wrecking yard would have been fruitful ...

[Turninangles]

I retraced a surveyor who set 6" dia. x 24" long concrete posts, down 6-12" in dirt roads. Permanent? I'm sure that's what he thought when he set them. But after 27 years of maintaining those dirt roads, several had been uncovered by grading. A few of them had the top portions broken off. He did take accessories, which hit right on. So I constructed similar 6" dia. x 24" long concrete posts, each with a DEEP magnet encased, rented an auger, set them 24" down, and take additional accessories. Hopefully they survive another 30 years of road maintenance and the destruction of the surrounding improvements.
On the same survey, where the corners fell in the open desert, I set flanged aluminum regulation posts. The only accessories that I felt would last were the color coded DEEP Magnets buried in the quadrants. The wind could blow all that soil away in 20 years. Hopefully some evidence remains. I tried to set monuments that would be as permanent as possible.

[E_Page]

Plastic works fine in some areas. When working in the great Northwet, I found several that had to have been among the first made, still looking pretty good. The conditions were that they were protected from direct sunlight and the ground stayed moist most of the year. Aluminum caps would have severely pitted under the same circumstances over the same period of time. Brass held up fine.

But most parts of CA, I agree, there are several better options for rebar/pipe caps as plastic may last only 3 to 5 years in a hot, dry climate.

[D Ryan]

1/2" IP set in 1962-found earlier this week.

Dave Ryan,
Eureka

[pls5528]

I personally like 1"-2" galvanized iron pipe material with brass ribbed nail and a tag set in concrete. I have never been a fan of plastic caps, they deface much too easily when exposed to traffic and melt with grass fires etc. I do like to use lead and tags in concrete. In fact one of the oldest monuments I have ever found was a lead and tag in the sidewalk of Manhattan Beach California, which had a two digit LS number. Although I wouldn't use them, in the deserts of San Bernardino and Riverside, redwood 2x2's still exist, and still in good condition, with the JAMES FLEMING DAVIDSON JR. (JIM) tags (3-digit RE).