surveying by civil engineers

[MikeTurnrose]

Can someone clarify what post 1982 civil engineers are allowed to do as far as surveying? Are they allowed to do a topographic survey of a road so they can prepare a grading and drainage plan as long as they don't show any property lines or easements?

Thanks.

[Jim Frame]

Yes, as long as they have the expertise to perform the work in compliance with the standard of practice.

[LS_8750]

Sure.
But what is a monument?
Is a monument a "fixed works"?
What the hell does that mean?
In my mind a monument is a monument, it is fixed, it memorializes something important. What is a "works"?
I always laugh at this. What the?
I wouldn't push far on this one...

[LS 4722]

Can someone clarify what post 1982 civil engineers are allowed to do as far as surveying? Are they allowed to do a topographic survey of a road so they can prepare a grading and drainage plan as long as they don't show any property lines or easements?

Thanks.

I would like to see a post 1982 CE design a grading/drainage plan for a road without showing the road RW lines.

I know they show them anyway, just like Architects show building setbacks they measured from fence lines and call out the setbacks to property lines.

[pls5528]

I have seen the system abused by some Civil Engineers after the 1982 revision in the law. I have heard it from more than one, "I can legally do design surveys". Does one really believe these surveys are just simply "floating in space"? Although, perhaps not shown on the final plot, most all are tied to monuments both vertically and horizontally. And yes, most of the plots I have seen show right of way and/or centerlines. How were these established?

[Jim Frame]

All good questions, but my response was directed to the question as written.

[steffan]

Not long ago a fellow in the know mentioned to me that the difference was that post 82's are limited in their topo work to plane surveying only. I believe he was referring to the additional responsibility that is granted to surveyors in 8726(f). I find this to be an interesting and dynamic topic considering today's tools and their increasingly widespread use by both surveyors and non-surveyors.

[Jim Frame]

the difference was that post 82's are limited in their topo work to plane surveying only.

I believe §6731.1(b) renders that assessment incorrect, since the surface of the earth is not, for the most part, a plane:

Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry.

[LS_8750]

For convenience:

6731. Civil engineering embraces the following studies or
activities in connection with fixed works for irrigation, drainage,
waterpower, water supply, flood control, inland waterways, harbors,
municipal improvements, railroads, highways, tunnels, airports and
airways, purification of water, sewerage, refuse disposal,
foundations, grading, framed and homogeneous structures, buildings,
or bridges:
(a) The economics of, the use and design of, materials of
construction and the determination of their physical qualities.
(b) The supervision of the construction of engineering structures.
(c) The investigation of the laws, phenomena and forces of nature.
(d) Appraisals or valuations.
(e) The preparation or submission of designs, plans and
specifications and engineering reports.
(f) Coordination of the work of professional, technical, or
special consultants.
(g) Creation, preparation, or modification of electronic or
computerized data in the performance of the activities described in
subdivisions (a) through (f).
Civil engineering also includes city and regional planning insofar
as any of the above features are concerned therein.
Civil engineers registered prior to January 1, 1982, shall be
authorized to practice all land surveying as defined in Chapter 15
(commencing with Section 8700) of Division 3.



6731.1. Civil engineering also includes the practice or offer to
practice, either in a public or private capacity, all of the
following:
(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces
the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within
the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731.
(b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth's surface
or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of
earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry.
(c) Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data
in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a)
and (b).
(d) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured
survey data pursuant to subdivisions (a), (b), and (c).




6731.2. Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice,
procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his
or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not
authorized to perform that work, provided all the land surveying work
is performed by, or under the direction of, a licensed land surveyor
or registered civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying.
Further, any registered civil engineer may manage or conduct as
manager, proprietor, or agent, a civil engineering practice which
offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental
land surveying work.

[LS 4722]

I believe §6731.1(b) renders that assessment incorrect, since the surface of the earth is not, for the most part, a plane:

that's really hanging on to a weak spiders web.

[LS_8750]

The scope of the PE is large enough that they can pigeonhole the LS, marginalize his/her value, convince the LS that he-she is expendable, and turn that LS into a commodity. I know of LS holders working independently for engineers for union wages. Stupid. No benefits, just wage. One cannot blame the engineer for viewing the LS as expendable. The LS culture breeds it's own demise.

When the LS world cannot homogenize the basic functions of the LS in society, the profession is dead. Good bye. Just another exam to pass, meaningless.

Secret. The rest of the world treats the engineer the same way.

[Jim Frame]

When the LS world cannot homogenize the basic functions of the LS in society, the profession is dead. Good bye. Just another exam to pass, meaningless.

It's largely a matter of supply and demand. I'm told of places in the southeastern U.S. in which growth is very slow and surveyors so plentiful that they compete fiercely enough to drive fees down to subsistence level and below. Even a smart, efficient and effective surveyor won't be able to overcome those conditions and maintain a substantial net profit.

There may be some areas of California in which those conditions pertain. If there are, I'd expect them to be very rural settings in which the lifestyle appeal trumps the desire to earn a respectable income. But the region in which I live has enough going on that those of us who choose not to wade into the fray of production surveying do okay. Not getting rich, certainly, but pretty much living the life I set out to live.

In the depths of the downturn my net took a dive, though it was still in the range of middle class income. I did have to relax my criteria, and even took a small construction staking job that kept me busy enough to keep the lights on and serve as a reminder of the reasons I don't like construction staking. I definitely had to pull in my horns for a year or two, but that phase passed and things have been on a pretty even keel ever since.

If there's a point to all this, I think it's that, overall, California still offers conditions in which a licensee with a modicum of skill above minimum and -- most importantly -- the willingness to take on some risk by forging his/her own path can achieve what most would consider success. That path doesn't necessarily mean self-employment; many public-sector LS jobs pay well. It may, however, mean having to leave the comfort of a job that's predictable but underpaid.

[LS_8750]

Very well stated Mr. Frame.

Reckon the friday night poison oak was getting to me.

[land butcher]

In my years in this profession the only wages that continue to grow are govt employee. Even though the union wage appears to increase the unions have consistently redirected wage increases to H&W or other union programs and the hourly wage on the check hasn't increased much.
As for private non union companies jobs today are going for less than they did 20 years ago.
Our fees rise a little during the good times and drop dramatically in the bad.
Is my $ value higher yes, but factoring in inflation it's not even close to 1990 $$.
When we start basing on fees on something tangible like the title cos and RE do then we might keep pace with inflation instead of coming home with a bag of quarters.