ADA Compliance

rpost · Post by **rpost** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:01 pm

Comments please.

My firm has been involved in several ADA projects lately. Recently I was shown an ADA compliance "survey" done by an Architect with an ADA certification, signed. It had pictures of a smart level showing slope, claiming certain features to be ADA deficient.

My question: Is this person capable to certify that this ramp is deficient by 0.1%?

Although I am not certain of the accuracy of the smart levels, I wonder, why did no one call me? If anyone can state deficiencies pertaining to slope a surveyor can and should.

I understand that a certified ADA specialist is better suited to find ADA deficiencies, but shouldn't a surveyor be in charge of determining the slope issues? Property owners are spending millions of dollars fixing their properties without someone qualified to measure, measuring.

What do you guys think?

TIB · Post by **TIB** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:23 pm

a HC ramp measured (certified) to 1/10 %? stoopidest thing i ever heard, almost

bruce hall · Post by **bruce hall** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:14 am

in the future stake the ramps at less than the max. I have recently started staking them at 1.5 percent slope and less than an 8.33 percent x fall. Gives the concrete guy 3 or 4 extra hundreths in 8 feet, maybe more, to play with.

It can make the ramp a little wider using less than the 8.33 percent. A little more concrete initially but it stays in the ground.

pbchief2 · Post by **pbchief2** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:13 pm

ADA or title VI type certification is non existent and is entirely dictated by the private industry last I seen. I know a company that was out there working with digital levels from Lowe's and ADA "Surveyors" with 3 days worth of certification courses. I found it amazing they were able to certify whether ramps, signs, walkways, etc. were non-compliant. Just wow.

By the way I'm a Certified ADA Surveyor according to the certificate I have.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:55 pm

Even using a 6ft level 0.1% is only 0.006' we don't grade the stakes that close. And not staking to plan can sometimes create problems down the line.

The standards are unbending even though anyone in a wheelchair could not tell the difference between 1.8 and 2%. Typical when non engineers are setting standards and non engineers (city inspectors) are certifying grades. I'll bet the inspectors don't even know how much 0.1% is.

I hope certified ADA inspectors charge a bunch. At $1600 to get a license, that's if you pass the test the first time, plus $500 every 3 years and CEUs.
Bet it doesn't pay near enough.

Smart levels are pretty good if they are calibrated before use and are set down parallel with the slope, otherwise it can't read the true slope.

rpost · Post by **rpost** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:36 am

So can anyone certify grade? I understand what these ADA specilists are doing, but I am under the impression that not just anyone can certify grade.

Also, our engineering has set in house standards for max ADA slopes. We use 1.5% & 7.8% when possible. Unfortuantely, especially when trying to make an existing site compliant, we have to use max slopes. Then it is on the contractor I suppose.

Paul Goebel · Post by **Paul Goebel** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:05 pm

I own a "smart level" made by another manufacturer and am impressed with the accuracy. We ran some tests comparing the smart level with a total station and engineer's spirit level with a Philly rod. The smart level gave the most repeatable results over the 4 foot length. The largest source of error was the uneven nature of concrete surfaces. Depending on which bumps and dips you take the measurement on, you could get nearly any result you want. The smart level is a good tool in the right hands. I have also wondered who was qualified to certify the results. I have certified projects using all of the tools above.

Lee Hixson · Post by **Lee Hixson** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:40 am

Paul.....I was thinking the same thing yesterday.

I know...we could do a laser scan of the ramp! With, say, 100 shots per square inch. Then produce a 3-D drawing so as to cut cross-sections every 1/4 of an inch. We could number the 50 or 60 cross-sections and plot a graph for each one. Then do a best fit vertical analysis, producing an average slope for the whole ramp.

Shouldn't take more than a few days to certify that ramp. The deliverable? A binder full of cross-section plots and a 3-D computer drawing for the city's files.

Anthony Maffia · Post by **Anthony Maffia** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:58 am

ADA inspectors?

There was a scam in Brentwood about four years ago, where a "certified handicapped person" sent out Home Depot parking lot guys to take "measurements" of ramps, the width of doors, photos of the bathrooms, height to the faucet, what kind of handles, what side of the toilette the HC grab bar and flush lever were on, width of sidewalks, ...

He filed half a dozen lawsuits against our client on the same day (he owns commercial properties) and demanded fixes (okay) together with settlement offers to kill the lawsuits (not okay.) I forget, but the demand was in the tens of thousands of dollars.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:02 pm

Anthony Maffia wrote:ADA inspectors?

There was a scam in Brentwood about four years ago, where a "certified handicapped person" sent out Home Depot parking lot guys to take "measurements" of ramps, the width of doors, photos of the bathrooms, height to the faucet, what kind of handles, what side of the toilette the HC grab bar and flush lever were on, width of sidewalks, ...

He filed half a dozen lawsuits against our client on the same day (he owns commercial properties) and demanded fixes (okay) together with settlement offers to kill the lawsuits (not okay.) I forget, but the demand was in the tens of thousands of dollars.

There is a lawyer here in Orange County that does just that. Sends out some low paid office workers to small mom and pop strip malls and writes up violations. For a settlement to him, the exact amount I don't remember, guessing $3K, he won't sue them. Blackmail plain and simple.

Back to the smart level and it's "knowledgeable" operators. So many factors can effect the readouts. Calibration, roughness and uniformity of the finish, was the level parallel to the ramp or was x-fall included in the reading. Since there is no give above 1.8% the only solution is to design at less than 1.8%.

My son told me that the last designs he was involved in on curb ramps, the standard does not allow for the slope of the sidewalk, and they were not allowing them to be longer than the 6ft for 6" curb and 8ft for 8" curb.

The whole ADA exactness is pie in the sky. They want something built with a rough (broom) finish but a grade machined by a $25K Bridgeport mill. DUH.

bruce hall · Post by **bruce hall** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:38 pm

"My son told me that the last designs he was involved in on curb ramps, the standard does not allow for the slope of the sidewalk, and they were not allowing them to be longer than the 6ft for 6" curb and 8ft for 8" curb."

That is just great LB. There are engineers designing stuff that can't be built, yet the technology to build them does exist. The ramp will never work with that type of mindset.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:13 am

Engineers do not design the ADA standards. And they, the ADA, do not respond to outside input.

rpost · Post by **rpost** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:50 pm

The crazy part to me is the law states that there is no tolerance. The max slopes are indeed maximum allowable. Unfortunately, since there is no real standard for measuring these slopes or allowable tolerance, anyone can do an ADA report, using just about anything to measure, and call something noncompliant.

There, to my knowledge, are no laws limiting anyone from using the title ADA expert.

There should be a requirement that an engineer or surveyor verify all improvements labeled as noncompliant, prior to construction.

Don't think that a design professional is always brought in for construction either. Plenty of contactors with gladly rip out improvements and put them back with their "calibrated" smart level.

Is the consumer really being protected?

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:46 am

"However, before complaining about ADA laws and limits, please first give consideration to the folks who use these facilities. I think if you can truly put yourselves in their place, you might be more agreeable that these are good laws with proper maximimum slope limits."

I would bet that you could put any number of handicap persons on a 1.8% and 2% slope and they could not tell the difference.

What is construction tolerance? I recently watched a wall builder build the footing 24" wide, 6" one way 18" the other, for a regular 6ft screen wall (12" footing reqd). Why because he dug all the way over to the 1.5ft o/s set nails to the PL. And I listened to him being told that they were offset nails to the PL 3 times. Then he had the audacity to request a extra for the concrete in the bigger footing.

Ask those handicap how they like having to roll their wheelchair across the street in a cobblestone crosswalk. The public agencies worry about 0.01% fall then install cobblestone crosswalks. DUH.

LS_8750 · Post by **LS_8750** » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:20 pm

The answer to all of this is not in your shoulder shrugging and disbelief at the use of smart levels as the basis for calling as-constructed ADA improvements out of compliance by 0.1%.

No, the answer is here in the Division of the State Architect's 2013 CBC Advisory Manual: http://www.dgs.ca.gov/dsa/programs/prog ... anual.aspx

Read up and tell those smart level preachers to put those silly things back in their trucks and go eat a donut.
Measurement is dead only for those who don't know how to use measurement.

"For What it's worth"

Gary Schenk · Post by **Gary Schenk** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:13 am

In OC the new trend for grind and asphalt overlay projects is to stop repaving before the curb return. That way, you don't touch the intersection, and thus don't need to rebuild the ramp to the new ADA standards.

It makes for some interesting looking intersections.

land butcher · Post by **land butcher** » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:13 pm

I wonder if anyone ever asked someone in a wheelchair how they felt about simulated cobblestone walks and truncated domes at the bottom of the ramps.

Someone makes minor changes in the ramp specs and millions of dollars of our tax money is spent removing and replacing ramps that are a little narrow or without some other minor update. A city would not do it, but since they get "free" federal money why not waste it.

Dave Karoly, PLS · Post by **Dave Karoly, PLS** » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:00 am

The first time I saw a smart level was in the 1990s. I was a Civil designer visiting the project I had designed. The concrete foreman pulled out a smart level and laid it down in the wet concrete. He said it was so he could avoid problems later. He flattened the slope a little bit to be sure it would pass.

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