ties on record maps

[land butcher]

I sorta remember something about existing ties to mons, fd or not, required to be shown on record maps.
Is this a new State law or am I mistaken - again.

[LS 4722]

I sorta remember something about existing ties to mons, fd or not, required to be shown on record maps.

That's one thing I have never heard of LB

In my area, LA County, only one I practice in, I come across a LOT of notations on RS, CR and Record Maps that say 'established by ties per CEFB 111 page 222...'

When dealing with C/L ties, there is usually more than one way to use them to re establish an intersection. Holding tangent intersections, mean of tie error, using 3 of 4 swing tie distances, lots of ways. What irritates me is the phrase 'established by ties ' on an RS or CR but not showing the method used.

On all my RS / CR I show my method on the record so others know just what ties I used and how I used them.

See attached

[land butcher]

I normally just say estab per TB.... or fd xx lieu of YY fits ties per TB...., tangent vs swing ties are controlled by the tie sheet, I do note if one or two are missing.
Having a map checker note say - "show ties graphically" is a new one. On this map it will require a 2nd sheet and probably have to do what I hate and that's put a number at each Fd mon and the desc and ties on the 2nd sheet. PITA when I have to do that on a reference map, going back and forth from the dimension sheet to the mon character sheet.
We are able to reference record maps for B&D I fail to see what showing the ties graphically adds as anyone using those ties, they will still have to send in a copy of the actual tie notes if they file a subsequent map.

[LS 4722]

I fail to see what showing the ties graphically adds as anyone using those ties,

Graphic only is a waste of time. If the ties shown do not have values associated with them on the CR/RS
then don't even put them on

Many times I have come across ties where distances have been written down for the wrong ties (switched), number
transposed or even the wrong foot recorded.

[bruce hall]

just doesn't want a stick figure, he is looking for bearings and distances from the found ties to the reestablished centerline. And I don't blame him either.

I have surveyed over way too many maps that said the centerline was established per the ties, NOTHING SET, and down the road the other surveyor goes.

I come back 5 years later, find the ties, they don't make sense for 0.15' or two of them are gone, and I have to deal with it. (and to the fella who thinks that two inches doesn't matter, you ain't working on my crew here in the OC)

Showing the found ties and putting a bearing and distance on the tie lines is more work and a PITA, but I have come to the conclusion that that is the proper way to do this. Even more proper is to set something at the reestablished point so that YOU can see and touch that sucker.

And Butcher, you wouldn't be dealing with this stuff if WE SURVEYORS would just SET stuff at the points we reestablish. But we don't, so this is the best next case scenario.

[land butcher]

ls4722 I wasn't clear, graphically and show B&D.

Bruce; When did this start?
In Santa Barbara county we had to put B&D on the Tie Notes not the maps.
What you are saying about error in tie distance will not be fixed by putting a B&D on them, they are still swing ties, so unless you also show a closed traverse thru the ties, 4 sided figure with diagonals, you still can have a bad bearing or distance.
There are locations in OC where setting or using the CL mon would require a #1 lane closure, Irvine south of Mesa dr is a good area for this, Santa Ana ave traffic CL was shifted so survey CL is in the SB traffic lane, you can't shut down the street, or where CL points fall on MHs.

[LS 4722]

What you are saying about error in tie distance will not be fixed by putting a B&D on them,

I don't think that is what Bruce meant.

The norm (in my experience) is that ties never close to the same point. The older the ties, the more off they tend to be. However, I have come across new ties just a few years old that don't close.

I show what ties I used and what I measured to them, but a new tie intersection (for my current survey) is not used by itself, I attempt to use those certain ties that stay in harmony with the other elements of that tie sheet, such as CL angles and distances to other points of control shown on other ties sheets. If I can come close to matching the older work, then I happy camper.

[bruce hall]

......" What you are saying about error in tie distance will not be fixed by putting a B&D on them, they are still swing ties, so unless you also show a closed traverse thru the ties, 4 sided figure with diagonals, you still can have a bad bearing or distance......."

I am not trying to fix a bad number. Just trying to show you what I did, especially if I don't set anything at the point being reestablished. How many ties were left? which ones? how did the distances work out?

The figure of the ties doesn't need to be closed. I can set up at this intersection, site a thousand feet north to a spike and washer, not close this spike and washer to anything else, and this line is still AOKAY. I don't have to close it out and neither do I have to close the tie data out.

........" There are locations in OC where setting or using the CL mon would require a #1 lane closure, Irvine south of Mesa dr is a good area for this, Santa Ana ave traffic CL was shifted so survey CL is in the SB traffic lane, you can't shut down the street, or where CL points fall on MHs......"

In that case I don't set anything either, usually. but the bearings and distances from my ties that reestablish this intersection can be directly related to my survey. I can set up on one of the ties, site 400 feet east to another point on my survey(or the ties just across the intersection) and I am in business. I know where I am in relation to this centerline that cannot be occupied or reset. How cool is that??? You tell me.

I have performed this scenario both ways and have come to the conclusion that showing bearings and distances from the ties to the point being reestablished is the proper way to do this. ESPECIALLY if I don't set anything in the street. It's better for YOU, not necessarily for me.

The best thing is to set something, and that's the rub, cause a lotta surveyors don't set anything. That way YOU can touch the monument and not have to figure out what I did.