Lines of agreement

[Olin Edmundson]

When objective uncertainty is encountered, i.e. when deeds are too vague or evidence too conflicting to make an exact call on a line, I have picked up the practice by mentors of using quitclaim deeds to fix the physical position of the line. It would start by taking your best guess at the line given the evidence that is available. Having the neighbors agree to this line. Monumenting the snot out of it..end points, line points, witnesses, etc. Preparing a legal description of this line calling for all monuments set and other found monuments in the area, preferably on recorded surveys. I would also include a note at the bottom stating the purpose. Then providing these legals to the client so they could have them put in the form of quitclaim deeds by an attorney whereby each party would release any right or claim to the other side of the line. Then of course, a Record of Survey would come at the end to memorialize everything. Jeff Lucas, in his Pincushion Effect states that he was in favor of this approach but then changed his mind. (He also uses this as an opportunity to go on about how most surveyors don't know what they're doing and if they did there wouldn't be uncertainty to begin with, but that is beside the point, objective uncertainty does exist) But Lucas is not in California and the situation he describes is when there are currently two conflicting surveys where I've used them in anticipation of two different surveyors in the future coming to two reasonable but alternate resolutions.

Any thoughts?

[LS_8750]

I would be careful with the term "exact call on a line."
I don't think I've ever made an "exact call" when locating a boundary line, not even in the case of the simplest corner record.
Apply the law and render and opinion yes, exact call nope.
If we had to make an exact call all the time there would be no such thing as the land surveyor.

We have the preponderance of evidence standard to adhere to, otherwise known as the 50% rule. We gather evidence and get to the point where we are pretty sure that the evidence tells the story about boundary location to a reasonable degree of certainty, but much less than "exact call" certainty.

[Olin Edmundson]

You could call it an exact call or you call it a position that you are comfortable defending. Is 51% a preponderance of evidence?

[E_Page]

51% is a preponderance.

Olin, what you described in your OP is that of a surveyor facilitating a boundary line agreement to give certainty to the location of a boundary that does not have the certainty of one distinct location.

Where two surveyors have differing opinions of where a boundary lies, it may or may not be a case of objective uncertainty. It may depend upon how well supported by both evidence and law each opinion is, and may also depend upon whether and for how long the parties may have recognized one of the surveys as properly marking the line.

[Olin Edmundson]

Where two surveyors have differing opinions of where a boundary lies, it may or may not be a case of objective uncertainty.

I'm talking about actual objective uncertainty and assuming we all know the difference. My question has to do with the mechanism by which a line of agreement gets into the record. What's the best way to accomplish it? and why?

[mpallamary]

Olin, I have a few of them. Sometimes, if you can prove them up, you can get a court to order one as a resolution. it is complicated, There are certain forms you should employ. If you are interested I can put a seminar on in your area. Where are you from?

[mpallamary]

Here is another one I am wrapping up. I developed this form with the attorneys. I am also wrapping up a seven lot boundary agreement for a title company. I was able to demonstrate the uncertainty because there were two surveyors before me and they could not agree as to a solution and I demonstrated they were both wrong and that there was still uncertainty. I posted a copy of the record of survey but it was taken down from the forum. Apparently you cannot post copies of recorded documents. In the way of belts and suspenders, I get the underlying municipality to issue a Certificate of Compliance for good measure.

Please note I am sharing this not from a theoretical perspective but from a practical perspective as I have done more of these than most others. The most important thing one can do is to recognize the elements. Most surveyors do not understand them and this leads to senseless litigation and conflict.

I hope this helps.

[LS_8750]

Blacks Law Dictionary (Ninth Ed.):
Preponderance of the Evidence.
The greater weight of the evidence, not necessarily established by the greater number of witnesses testifying to a fact but by evidence that has the most convincing force; superior evidentiary weight that, though not sufficient to free the mind wholly from all reasonable doubt, is still sufficient to incline a fair and impartial mind to one side of the issue rather than the other.” The burden of proof in most civil trials....

Oh, and how bout this:
Relevant Evidence.
Evidence tending to prove or disprove a matter in issue. Relevant evidence is both probative and material and is admissible under FRE 401 (Federal Rules of Evidence) unless excluded by a specific statute or rule.

These definitions should make one pause and ponder the entire pincushion concept and realize the utter stupidity in squabbling over a few tenths here and there. "Diminimis non curat lex" which translates something like "don't waste the courts precious time with your stupid garbage."

I hold a pipe, you call it off by a couple of tenths. Do we have uncertainty? If so, then you can have my "license", my "registration", my "professional credential," whatever you might call it. Piss on it.

At some point we all have to suck it up and make the call. That is our job.

[Olin Edmundson]

Mike- a seminar would be great. I think we could all benefit from knowing how to put these lines of agreement properly in place. What I like about them is their ability to provide the client with a defensible line to work with. If, after all is considered and analyzed, you still are at 51%, we are doing our clients no favors by just choosing one of the solutions. When significant uncertainties exist (not talking about a couple tenths here) they are a way to clean up the record so that the position is not forever open to multiple interpretations. We can end up with something that in the future cannot easily be challenged and wind up in conflict and possibly in the courts. We haven’t created all of these problems and we can’t solve them all ourselves, but the more tools we have at our disposal to help our clients solve problems, the better.

Book the seminar anywhere in the Bay Area, I’m in Santa Cruz. I can help distribute info to the local chapters if needed.

Thanks!

[David Kendall]

Mike- a seminar would be great. I think we could all benefit from knowing how to put these lines of agreement properly in place. What I like about them is their ability to provide the client with a defensible line to work with. If, after all is considered and analyzed, you still are at 51%, we are doing our clients no favors by just choosing one of the solutions. When significant uncertainties exist (not talking about a couple tenths here) they are a way to clean up the record so that the position is not forever open to multiple interpretations. We can end up with something that in the future cannot easily be challenged and wind up in conflict and possibly in the courts. We haven’t created all of these problems and we can’t solve them all ourselves, but the more tools we have at our disposal to help our clients solve problems, the better.

Book the seminar anywhere in the Bay Area, I’m in Santa Cruz. I can help distribute info to the local chapters if needed.

Thanks!

I want to come to that seminar. Book it in Santa Cruz, I'll bring a buddy or two down from Humboldt

[LS_8750]

What about holding a seminar during the conference?

[dedkad]

As Michael pointed out, I think that any of these quitclaims or boundary agreements should be followed up with Certificates of Compliance. Don't want to run afoul of the SMA and cause future problems for your client when they try to build on this newly described parcel.

[LS_8750]

What about in the parking lot?
Or perhaps the nearest bar?

[mpallamary]

I recovered the unpublished Hedgecock case from the court of appeals. I will scan it and get a few more documents for context.

Yeah, a parking lot seminar sounds like a good idea!

[Labedzki]

Mike would be the only known person speaking at the conference, albeit at the parking lot or bar. I'll bring a EZ up and some camp chairs! Clark can you bring the PA system and cooler?

[Olin Edmundson]

The conference could also offer a group counseling session for those struggling with uncontrollable anger toward the pincushion effect. :) The parking lot could be a good spot for this too.

[LS_8750]

I'm afraid Mr. Pallamary is just gonna have to yell.
I'll bring some Coleman coolers though, and perhaps a couch or something so I can lay down and receive some counseling for my uncontrollable anger. Good one Olin.
Cheers,
Clark

[marois]

Richard Maher, of Orange County Chapter, is our new Workshop Committee Chair. I'm sure he is looking for ideas.

[mpallamary]

You guys are brutal!

Seriously there is a lot of interest in a presentations. Let me see where this develops.

[LS_8750]

Olin, I am glad you posted this thread.
On the topic of the BLA and the Lucas book, I created the following thread a few years ago that had some interesting input:

http://clsaforum.californiasurveyors.or ... ion+effect

[Olin Edmundson]

Thanks Clark, I'll take a look. I think an important skill for surveyors to have is the ability to recognize the distinction between the problems we can solve alone vs. the problems we cannot. Many may not get this. Where we can't solve the problems alone, the best we can do is attempt to usher our clients (and adjoiners) down the road to an amicable solution. This is where Lines of Agreement, Lot Line Adjustments and Easements can be valuable tools.

[David Kendall]

I think an important skill for surveyors to have is the ability to recognize the distinction between the problems we can solve alone vs. the problems we cannot. Many may not get this. Where we can't solve the problems alone, the best we can do is attempt to usher our clients (and adjoiners) down the road to an amicable solution. This is where Lines of Agreement, Lot Line Adjustments and Easements can be valuable tools.

Amen, brother

[LS_8750]

Olin, you nailed that one.
Cheers,
Clark