another monument (non) replacemrnt rant

[TIB]

Did survey in City of SD today. Fd records of my 4 block corners and 5 other adjacent block corners (7x7) indicating a monument. 9 total. All 9 had been destroyed by new HC ramps. Only 1 had been replaced and a CR filed. 8 outta 9 accepted of record block corner monuments gone. The City of SD should be embarrassed and ashamed for allowing all these important landmarks to be lost forever. 3 cheers to Mike P. for his tireless efforts to fix this illegal practice, but it continues cuz nobody but us private surveyors care, The importance of new HC ramps on every corner is very high, but the importance of preserving the monuments they destroy (as required) is very low, just like our place on the City Gov't totem pole,
TIB

[mpallamary]

Thanks for the kind words.

http://www.kusi.com/story/32083033/turk ... o-pin-down

[jzeman]

I have the same struggle working in the public sector. When another department does improvements without notifying the Survey Division. We have lost plenty of monuments and ties. The only way I discovered lost or destroyed monumentation and ties is when I go do a survey. Job security to redo them!

[Steve Martin]

It happens here too.

The City Surveyor is chairman of the local JPPC committee and makes sure permits to work in the streets are not issued until monuments are referenced and Corner Records are filed.

I did a survey of one of the blocks where our offices are located and reset 1 block corner. Lo and behold, a few month later, the City puts in ped-ramps all up and down the street and knocks out my block corner (who knows how many others they destroyed).

So I called up the City Surveyor to report/complain about it. He said that it was a internal communication issue. Someone else within the City let out a contract to install lots of ped-ramps because they received some grant money for the work and did not even notify his survey group. They must have by-passed the permit to work in the street part for internally generated contracts.

Follow up with the City Surveyor and give him a chance to make it right.

[CG Vandrey]

On the topic of how agencies handle internal as well as external notifications about where monuments are; San Mateo County has experienced success with GIS tools.

http://dpwmaps.maps.arcgis.com/apps/web ... b13de14c94

It's web based and no special software is needed which means anyone with a PC, smartphone or tablet can see monument locations and figure out pretty quickly the projects impact on the monuments. It's also a layer that can be shared with other infrastructure GIS's like road reconstruction, underground utility upgrades and ADA compliance projects.

We've also set it up so it can be crowd sourced. It's not the only monument preservation tool we have but it is the most effective method for sharing monument locations with others.

Great topic!

Christopher G Vandrey, PLS
San Mateo County Public Works

[dedkad]

CG, I like the link to the photos.

[Rob_LS]

It is not job security to "redo them" after they have been destroyed, it is our professional responsibility to perpetuate them before they are destroyed, and do our best to replace or reference them so their actual original position can be determined. We MUST be resourced to do this work BEFORE monuments are destroyed. If we do not educate the engineers the easy way, the hard way is a two step process:

1 IDENTIFY THE ENGINEER OF RECORD
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf
6730.2. Legislative intent; requirement for responsible charge
(c) The designated person in responsible charge of professional civil engineering work of any department or agency of the state, city, county, city and county, district, or special district pursuant to this section is responsible for compliance with subdivisions (b) and (c) of Section 8771.

2 FILE A COMPLAINT
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/consumers/comp ... nsee.shtml

[Steve Martin]

Rob,

I can't recommend filing a complaint. I think the better recourse is to talk to the City Surveyor in person and explain the situation. The City Surveyor fully understands the need for monument perpetuation and is the proper person to bring this matter up with.

[mpallamary]

The City of San Diego estimates it costs $500.00 to tie out a monument and to file a Corner Record. They estimate it costs $5,000.00 to reset a lost monument. These monuments MUST be preserved. What is going to happen here is the destruction of these monuments will lead to litigation and that is when it gets really expensive.

[land butcher]

Govt doesn't care because it doesn't cost them a dime. There needs to be a avenue of reimbursement to the private party needing the survey from the local agency. No court just send them the bill.

[land butcher]

I'm assuming that since different depts of local agencies are involved there is no state board recourse either.

No punishment = no care.

[jzeman]

Do not confuse the comment of job security with not caring. When there is work (contracted) being done monuments get tied out and a pre-construction and post-construction tie sheet or corner record is prepared. I understand the responsibility of maintaining records. The problem is not being informed ahead of time or not at all. Then discovering work already (no contract internal work) being done with monuments destroyed. I have reported to the department director or supervisor.

[Rob_LS]

In response to a couple of comments:

As Mike P mentioned, it costs 10 times as much to replace as to perpetuate correctly from the start. The problem is, the government survey staff are not "resourced" for the replacement, and likely not "resourced" even for the initial perpetuation. Mike's effort to educate the public via the media has gotten great headlines, but apparently some of the engineers are still unaware. The Project managers must be educated as well. Projects get routed around Surveys (likely) in all jurisdictions. It is as frustrating as all hell.

Land Butcher - With respect to "Gov't doesn't care" I can't say the government does, but the mission is to serve "the people" and within most organizations goals and values should be to comply with applicable laws and uphold ethical standards in their work. When called on it - the people at the top will fall back on their mission, vision, goals and values. Additionally, I know many government surveyors like City of San Diego Surveyor Greg Hopkins, CG Vandrey, Steve Martin, JZEMan and numerous others DO care. We are trying to make the situation better from the inside, but we are usually far outnumbered and in most cases, most of the food chain above us are engineers. Some get it, and some just don't. I had the chance to speak to a group of 40 Project Managers a month or so. Talk about eyes bugging out when I told them they were responsible for compliance with monument perpetuation requirements of 8771.

Steve, my statement said: "If we do not educate the engineers the easy way, the hard way is a two step process:" Absolutely speak to the City surveyor. His was likely out of the loop on projects with monuments destroyed. All of us need to be educating the engineers. I repeat, if the easy way does not work, then the hard way is a two step process. Yes, it is the somewhat "nuclear option."

[mpallamary]

I agree! These are great folks and they are doing a wonderful job. What they need is support from the private surveying community. Every chapter of CLSA should lobby to support city and county surveyors so they have enough money to get this work done.

Everyone of you should be on the phone next week calling your city councilor, mayor, supervisor and every politician you know.

This is an opportunity to do something. Let's make a difference together.

And yes! We need to educate the engineers and project managers.

Thanks Rob!