ALTA Survey - ROS Required?

[charlie8297]

I know if we are to set any monuments when preparing an ALTA Survey, we are required to file a Record of Survey, or at least a Corner Record. As part of an ALTA Survey, we are also required to show any encroachments on to the subject property or on to a neighboring property. We also show fence lines and party walls, with distances to a property line. Would the encroachment require a Record of Survey to filed by law? With distances shown from the property line to a fence line or party wall, would this monument the fence line of party and therefor require a Record of Survey to filed?

Thanks for the feed back.

[William Magee]

Just to play the devil's advocate (or perhaps the devil himself in some eyes) I offer food for thought by quoting the following section of the B&P code:

8762. ...
...(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), after making a field survey in conformity with the practice of land surveying, the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer shall file with the county surveyor in the county in which the field survey was made a record of the survey relating to land boundaries or property lines, if the field survey discloses any of the following:
....
(3) Evidence that, by reasonable analysis, might result in materially alternate positions of lines or points, shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey previously recorded or filed in the office of the county recorder or the county surveying department, or any map or survey record maintained by the Bureau of Land Management of the United States.

So the question to ask you, are those fences/ encroachments, party walls, etc, evidence of alternate positions considering case (and to a lessor extent, statute) law regarding acquiescence, adverse possession, agreed boundary, prescription, or other principles governing land boundary determinations?

[charlie8297]

I believe that a Record of Survey should be filed if there are any encroachments (walls, buildings, permanent site improvements) and as for the fence lines, who built it, was a survey completed before the fence was constructed, how long have the fences been in that location and (the big question) what was the original owners intent when he split the property. The fences could be considered lines of occupation and not Deed lines.

Here is the reason I ask:
I had a colleague get nailed by the Board when he did a LLA because the original, creating deed had a prime call of "... to the northerly extension of a fence, ... along said fence line...". The Board's position was that HE was monumenting the fence line by using the same original call in the description for the newly adjusted property. Their stance was that if you use an improvement as a prime call that is not on a recorded map, you are monumenting said improvement and need to file a ROS. Also, if you dimension any site improvement to the property line, you are monumenting that improvement as well.

So...., with that being said, are we required to file a Record of Survey if show distances from a fence line to a property line? This is going to run up the cost to the prospective client who is being required to provide an ALTA Survey.

[Jim Frame]

are we required to file a Record of Survey if show distances from a fence line to a property line?

Only if your survey discloses any of the §8762 triggers.

This is going to run up the cost to the prospective client who is being required to provide an ALTA Survey.

It's going to run it up right around where it should be. In my experience, a very high percentage of ALTAs hit one or more of the ROS triggers, but there are enough practitioners who are willing to overlook those requirements that few Records of Survey get filed in connection with ALTAs. There are firms who do nothing but ALTAs, cranking them out by the dozen, yet they almost *never* file a ROS. This situation has driven the user community to expect unreasonably low costs for these surveys, and from what I've seen they get a product that's worth considerably less than the low fees that they're paying.

Their stance was that if you use an improvement as a prime call that is not on a recorded map, you are monumenting said improvement and need to file a ROS.

I don't agree with this general interpretation, though without details it's hard to say exactly what went into the Board's conclusions.

[Anthony Maffia]

Deleting posts is wrong

[Proud7191]

Where is Mr. Dave Woolley on this issue? Inquisitive minds want to hear his input. At one time I thought the attorney general was going to go after surveyors for not filing a RS on ALTA surveys? The evidence is very clear and present on the ALTA map prepared and sealed by the professional. I have been waiting for the climax of this issue for over 10 years now :) Jp

[RAM]

you do not have to set monuments to trigger the need for an R/S. If you and asking yourself if you should file an R/S, then yes you probably should.

[Peter Ehlert]

Exactly. Set monuments? Not a big trigger, Material Discrepancy is the biggie.