Lead & Tags

[mpallamary]

I think the O-Tag system is a great tool!

[E_Page]

I was unaware of the propensity to corrode away in relatively short order, but consider cup tacks a poor choice as a monument for several other reasons. I do believe that under many conditions a Magnail or other mail made of durable materials can be a perfectly good monument. I've seen the small brass tags, like the one in Mike's photo a couple posts up, anchored with brass or ferrous nails that have been securely in place for decades. If in a location and/or set so unlikely to be disturbed, they are adequately durable, IMO, to meet both the letter and spirit of the law.

Set in material, in a location, or in a manner where they are likely to be disturbed or destroyed in relatively short order, they are inadequate to meet the legal requirements. Then again, the same can be said for a 4" x 72" galvanized iron pipe, filled with concrete and with a galvanized cap welded to it. The difference being that the latter will prove to be durable in a broader set of conditions. The question of durability is entirely relative to the material and use conditions at the location the monument is to be set. The question of permanence of the affixed markings is nearly the same as that of durability. One must consider the durability of the material holding the markings relative to present and expected conditions at the location being marked, durability of the material holding the marked cap or tag to the actual monument, and the ability of the marked material to hold the markings legibly over the life of the monument under present and foreseeable future conditions.

[LS_8750]

Let's all individually detail out each deficiently described, or set, monument and create a grandiose database that we don't share with one another and tell everybody who cares nothing. And never recognize that we are a bunch of freaks that nobody cares about.

[mpallamary]

Back in Massachusetts, when we set primary subdivision corners, they were seven feet long and made out of granite. When we set them, we had to bury them five-feet deep and the remaining two-feet stuck out of the ground. The depth was necessary because they had to be below the frost line. Because of snow and rural debris like leaves, etc., they had to be visible above the ground. On a really good day, we could set 4 or maybe 5 monuments.

The smaller ones were made of concrete and, as I recall, four feet long with three feet below grade.

You could not use iron pipes as the ground would pop those out after a short while.

[mpallamary]

This is from the Massachusetts Land Court Manual:

2.1.3.5.2. Permanent Monument. A permanent monument is a monument that can
reasonably be expected to remain stable for at least 20 years. It shall be
made of durable material and of such nature so as to resist displacement or
erosion. Stone or concrete monuments may be considered permanent
monuments when they are at least 5 inches square on top and at least 3 feet
long if set flush with the surface of the ground, otherwise longer. The
bottom of the bound should always reach below the frost line. Drill holes,
lead plugs, and disks set in ledge or large, stable rocks are usually
permanent monuments. Iron pipes over 3 feet long may be considered
permanent monuments when
a. a 3" diameter or larger pipe has a flange on the bottom and has
been filled with concrete; or
b. when a pipe is set solidly in concrete.
Generally, monuments marking or referencing property lines and property
corners, unless otherwise permitted herein, shall be permanent monuments.

2.1.3.5.3. Semi-Permanent Monument. Semi-permanent monuments are durable
monuments that remain stable for several years. Although many iron pipes
remain undisturbed for years, most are easily dislodged or removed. For
this reason the Court views almost all iron pipes as semi-permanent. Semipermanent
monuments include metal rods and pipes at least 3 feet long and
spikes or large nails driven into solid pavement.

[Anthony Maffia]

Rebars in hard dirt seem good and durable, but having to dig out a buried 1" iron pipe before you can drive in the rebar is such a waste of time.

[DWoolley]

I recently stopped by the last job site which I noted the surveyor set cup tacks in lead with a tag. I estimate they were set 3-4 years ago. Both monuments were gone - one due to new sidewalk and the other, only lead with a hole which once held a cup tack.

It is fair to say cup tacks are not durable monuments. I will put this particular project in my future complaints pile - which is currently more than a file cabinet drawer. Faithful readers please temper your expectations, experience tells me this sort of complaint will hardly warrant BPELSG staff wagging a finger - a slap on the wrist is simply out of the question. In all fairness, the BPELSG staff doesn't deserve the brunt of our scorn as they rely on their self certified technical "experts" opinion.

I would encourage folks with expertise to submit an application to be a technical expert. Those that believe holding record angles and distances over monuments of record is acceptable or setting monuments is the only trigger for filing a record of survey or boundaries can be established from any two monuments or provide topo maps with a "record boundary" or ALTA land title surveys do not require a record of survey in most instances need not apply.

DWoolley

[Mr. Smith]

I think you should apply for Technical Expert Woolley, seems you are very confident in your beliefs,
myself have been doing this long enough to know every survey problem is unique.

As for you people using lead in the field (or making your minions handle this material) are breaking
some kind of CALIOFORNNIA law, I cannot use lead bullets or lead fishing weights so I think we need
another statute that forbids and mandates the “none use” of such a toxic substance in surveying.
(For those who do not know me I am being flippant).

On a serious note counter boring is a good Idea but here where it freezes that hole causes another problem, anyway the battery powered drills and carbide bits are a God send compared to those damn star drills of the past.

Brian

[rpost]

I think more surveyors should be using the yellow plastic caps. They seem to be an excellent choice for durability and cost. Kidding. Are aluminum cap really too expensive?

I am still confused as to how these stupid things are allowed. I just broke one digging yesterday and had to replace it with a more durable paper mache cap!

[DWoolley]

Brian Smith:

I do not affirm to any particular “beliefs” without further clarification as to which beliefs are being referenced.

I would argue, when viewed on whole, individual surveys, like their respective land surveyors, are hardly unique snowflakes. There exists narrow sliver aspects and expertise within the discipline which are somewhat remarkable e.g. the measurement aspects of high rise construction or tunneling boring, some elements of litigation support or the occasional one off boundary solution and the corresponding map.

However, land surveyors – including myself – are unlikely to be splitting any atoms, discovering a cure for cancer, winning a Pulitzer or a Nobel prize, no, we are regular folks as common as a penny – with some specialized training. Many of us happened to have fallen into the profession and stuck with it because the work was mild and the pay was ok. Our small numbers are not due to uncommon intelligence – as some peers would have us believe – rather, it is relative to the demand. Dear reader, if that statement stings a little I would question the professional understandings of our function in society and the core competencies of the injured. I would further argue, collectively, our professional community suffers from illusory superiority - the Lake Wobegon effect.

I will not begin to address the levels incompetence or the noncompliance with the statutes in the industry –which number less than 15 pages of substantive material. Suffice to say, collectively, we are a shadow industry – the darkness of the shadow appears to be regionally divided. I quite often stop to meet folks I see surveying around the county. Dressed professionally, I approach them wearing a safety vest and oftentimes, a hardhat. More often than not, the field staff acts as though they’ve stolen something – providing only first names, mumbling and oftentimes lying – when I approach them to ask for the particulars of their work, which company they work with and the name of the licensee in charge.

Mr. Smith, maybe these facts do not hold true in your region, maybe you will split an atom and when you do, I will be the first to congradulate you, sincerely.

D. Woolley

[Mr. Smith]

thanks for replying Mr. Woolley,

Again we see our profession through a different lens. In cow country when another surveyor comes
by we shake hands and talk, I guess it is different in Orange County.

What do you think about my opinion on lead being unsuitable for handling?

Have a great Christmas

Brian

[rpost]

Lead works well for our uses. I like to wash my hands before eating my lunch.

[DWoolley]

Brian Smith:

My having grown up in cow country I can readily recognize the Hereford on your aviatar. This same upbringing included having eaten plenty of lead shot in turkeys, ducks, pheasants and grouse. Arguably, I am ok-ish and have not realized any lasting effects. At your mention, in comparison to Orange County, I was driving in hay fields before I was 10 and driving unsupervised, with loaded weapons and fishing poles, on the roads by 12 - thinking back, violating the child labor laws and several motor vehicles laws. Fortunately, I had cleaned up my act by the age of 14 - when I was duly licensed to drive and bought my first car with the money I had saved working in the hay fields.

I researched lead and there are plenty of regulations concerning the use. I could not find anything on point with a land surveyor's specific use. After reading, I would recommend against ingestion and the use of lead while pregnant.

DWoolley

[Anthony Maffia]

It has low nutritional value anyway, so I recommend avoid ingesting it even when not pregnant.

[Steve Martin]

Part of the cause of Franklin's ill-fated exploration of the Northwest passage was due to lead poisoning from the water distillation system on the ship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin' ... expedition

Some info on lead in drinking water:

http://www.ebmud.com/water-and-drought/ ... formation/

http://www.ebmud.com/about-us/news/pres ... ent-obama/

[pls7809]

Or just Google Flint, MI water problems.

[hellsangle]

And to think . . . in the 1800s water transmission was by lead pipe. And the people of yesteryear seem a whole lot more intelligent than what we have today.

Happy holidays, all!

Phil - Sonoma

[Mr. Smith]

Ya, in California especially, the government protects us to much.
I was joking about using lead but you watch it will soon
be against the law.

Merry Christmas

Brian

PS Mr Wolley that darn lead shot breaks teeth dont it.
soon only steel can be used for hunting.

[Kurt Lehnhardt]

Dave What do you think of Gin Spindles and Brass washer in AC pavement ? Maybe there is a specific shaft length and girth that defines the line of "durable monument" for a centerline monument or control in shoulders.

I am working on an a Monument Preservation ROS and I don't want to get turned in.

Kurt Lehnhardt, PLS

[Jim Frame]

And to think . . . in the 1800s water transmission was by lead pipe. And the people of yesteryear seem a whole lot more intelligent than what we have today.

Ask the residents of Flint, MI what they think about lead water service lines.

[DWoolley]

Dave What do you think of Gin Spindles and Brass washer in AC pavement ? Maybe there is a specific shaft length and girth that defines the line of "durable monument" for a centerline monument or control in shoulders.

Kurt:

I certainly hope they're durable. I have set quite a few gear spikes/gin spindles - they seem to be lasting. I have found the key is to counter-sink them. They appear to be chill hardened or some carbon rich hardening which makes them almost brittle. The head will pop off with one to many hits of a hammer (or trafffic if they aren't counter-sunk). We began drilling them out, but the tapered part with the barbs won't catch - nevermind the barbs angle the wrong direction to be of use. We began dipping the shaft - which is 4.75 - 5.25 inches in length - and washer in an epoxy when we set them. Lastly, we stamp our own washers so the numbers can be read outside of the head of the spike. Standard ordered stamped washer's numbers are obscured by the head of the spike.

I have found several railroad spikes, with license numbers stamped on them, which are 40+ years old.

We recently switched from gear spikes to DuraNails (see link below). In doing so I doubled my monument cost from $1 each to $2 each, not ideal, but they are longer and have a twist on the shaft. Most awesome is the head won't break off when hit a couple of extra times or less than square. We still counter-sink and epoxy them into the pavement. They have a nice red X etched in the top.

http://www.berntsen.com/Surveying/Surve ... itemID/817

All that being said, nothing beats a monument well or an iron pipe set in asphalt - like in Riverside and San Bernardino Counties.

We recently did a monument preservation project which had iron pipe set in asphalt. After the 3" overlay we couldn't set anything with a shaft longer than 3" without hitting the monument below. Experience says 2"-3" "nails" are not durable and should be reported to BPELSG - be interesting to see what they do. We decided to set a 2.75" brass disc with a magnet at the bottom of the pilot hole. We have experimented with the epoxy (by setting some brass disc in the wrong place) and could not remove the disc with a crowbar - popped the head off of the disc.

Thoughts?

DWoolley

[PLS7393]

Back to our original post and cup tacks.

In my opinion, cup tacks are only good for construction staking, or used with a plastic plug in an iron pipe, but that too is not durable. Tacks are convenient to create a "Porcupine Point" in that iron pipe, lol. Tacks became common with 3/4' brass tags because the tag provider drilled a small hole, and stamped horizontally too close to the hole. Therefore surveyors used tacks to not cover up the LS #. Unfortunately we all have found many of nail & tags that were unreadable because the surveyor used a large head concrete nail with their tag. I use to grind each of my nail heads into a rectangle so that my PLS # was not obscured when used with a tag to satisfy State Codes. Then I began to see some tags with the stamping around the outside portion of the tag and had to search them out.

At conferences, I spoke with both Bernsten and SURV-KAP to explain my needs and issue while they both seemed to understand they wanted to discuss this back at their office and said they would see what they could do and get back to me. Neither company ever got back to me, but then I found tags from LO INK. Their catalog had 3/4" brass tags with stamping around the circumference, and upon receiving my shipment their stamping is even a larger font, making it easier to read!

Now to the concrete nail. I use to have a supply of square shaft nails, but my supply ran out and all I could find was the fluted concrete nail that is common at Home Depot, Lowes, and other Survey Supply Companies. No one could help with my inquiry. Then I remembered where I believe I purchased the square shaft nails, Ace Hardware! I went to the store and they no longer had the bulk nails. I found they carried "Concrete Screw Nails", but they were 1.5" and too long to pre-drill into concrete. So I found some help, looked at their catalog and they were able to special order these nails in 1" length, so I ordered 6 lbs of nails and set for a long time!!!
Points I set in concrete are true, durable, and satisfy codes. Survey the location, mark and pre drill with a 1/8" concrete bit, and your nail & tag will go in with a couple hits with a hammer. No lead needed to save our planet, lol.

See pictures below for reference to the preferred tag by LO Ink along with the "Concrete Screw Nail" I mentioned. Notice that with the smaller head nail, the horizontal stamping is still 100% readable.

It is now up to you to act like a professional, and decide what steps you want to do to set a durable monument in concrete.

[DWoolley]

Field find today - see the attached photo. A cup tack set between 6 and 18 months ago based on the map filing date of July, 2015 with the monumenting being bonded - which means they were set after July, 2015. Durable? Hardly.

DWoolley

IMG959943.jpg

[mpallamary]

Dave, those are what we call markers, not monuments. They'll be gone soon and the tag will wash away. Durable it is not.

[Anthony Maffia]

Bimetallic corrosion can be prevented if a brass brad is used lieu of the galvanized cup tack.