Post-Construction Monument Replacement

[khuerth]

Good Afternoon, I need some surveyors opinions and I know they never run dry, so....

I have a situation where a road in my area was repaved (new pavement section not just slurry seal) and the contractor hired a surveyor to file corner records and perpetuate the monuments (yay!). The surveyor has filed pre and post construction corner records with the County (still going through plan check). The original monument was 1 1/4" IP with a 2" Brass Cap in "old style hand hole" (basically a small monument well with no lid), the monument he put in after construction is a spindle and brass washer in the surface. Is this adequate?

8771b of the PLS Act says "...They shall be reset in the surface of the new construction, a suitable monument box placed thereon, or permanent witness monuments set to perpetuate their location if any monument could be destroyed, damaged, covered, or otherwise obliterated..."

Since the surveyor set nail and tags in the curb as part of the pre-construction corner record, does that allow him to set such a "puny" monument to replace the IP? I have been discussing this with the County Surveyor and he has been very helpful, but stops short of offering his opinion whether the spindle is adequate enough.

Thanks for any and all opinions.

[Jim Frame]

In my opinion, the project surveyor has not complied with either the letter or the intent of the statute.

[Warren Smith]

The resurfacing project should have identified and replaced the monument box as part of the plans and specs. The designated Engineer for the public agency has that responsibility. The tying out, referencing for resetting, and documentation is a Land Surveyor's function.

[William Magee]

Not to debate either way, but if the nail(s) and tags set in the curbs were of a durable quality I would be happy as a retracer being as it would help keep me off of the traveled way and out of direct traffic. I wish all perpetuation efforts were focused on setting safer reference positions as opposed to constructing expensive traffic well monuments out in harm's way.

[Olin Edmundson]

In evaluating the sufficiency of a monument preservation project, I'd look at the overall big picture. A well monument is nice, but if it's out in the middle of a busy multiple lane intersection, I may not send a crew out in harms way if there are multiple reference points nearby that can be used to re-establish the point. In my opinion, witnesses should be set to all restored points for a monument preservation project, so you end up with three or four local monuments available for future use. This is what gives the corner the best chance of surviving the longest. We too often get caught in a myopic view of critiquing a particular monument rather than looking at the overall durability of the survey. A three inch nail is no good, you should be ashamed, please someone call the board immediately, and lets hope they yank their licensed. A five inch nail, you're golden, job well done, give yourself a pat on the back.

[Tracy Park]

In my opinion, the project surveyor has not complied with either the letter or the intent of the statute.

I agree.

[khuerth]

The reason I brought this up yesterday, I had just been in the middle of an extremely busy intersection setting stradlers to replace a CL mon and even with proper traffic control it was very dangerous. If just setting ties on the curb around the intersection is adequate, why would any CL monuments get replaced, like William and Olin mentioned, safety reasons alone is enough not to use the CL monuments.

The intersection in my original post is a lightly traveled "T" intersection with 100' wide ROW going all three directions and good line of sight, it is in an old part of town and these monuments are used it almost all the boundary surveys in the area.

As I am not licensed (taking the exam for the first time in April), would I be out of line to reach out to the surveyor that set the monuments and ask him? This is the area I plan on practicing for my career and would like all the local monuments properly perpetuated.

Thanks for all the responses.

[William Magee]

In my opinion, the project surveyor has not complied with either the letter or the intent of the statute.

Just for the sake of being the devil's advocate (and at great risk of being labeled falsely) I offer that the:

1. intent of the law is to perpetuate monuments.
.

Not long ago and to a lessor extent today, monuments are destroyed in public rights of way during public works and development projects. If reference monuments had been set during those past transgressions, we wouldn't be having this discussion today as the efforts to re-write 8771 wouldn't have been necessary. I'll accept a documented and "durable" reference monument any day as meeting the definition of perpetuation.

2. letter of the law. 8771c says in part: " A.... or a witness monument or monuments set to perpetuate the location if any monument could be .......covered .... "

Sounds like the intent and letter of the law have been met, providing the witness monuments are of a (subjectively determined) durable nature.

As I said, I'm simply playing the devil's advocate. To be truthful, the times I have been approached by a client for the aforementioned task, I typically provide an estimate of the effort it would take to place or raise a well monument. Witness monuments can be misunderstood by the lay person and a street well monument is likely to stand the test of time. I do hate them though. Just last week I had to access several of them and each one was full to the brim with rusty red water and a couple of them had their lids sealed shut. Plus even with flaggers the exposure to truckers on their dashboard TV's and teenage texters was not the most enjoyable time I've spent surveying. I'd much rather have been stepping on snakes and startling bears than spending an hour opening, cleaning out and setting up on a C/L monument on a busy arterial way.

[William Magee]

Good Afternoon, I need some surveyors opinions and I know they never run dry, so....

I have a situation where a road in my area was repaved (new pavement section not just slurry seal) and the contractor hired a surveyor to file corner records and perpetuate the monuments (yay!). The surveyor has filed pre and post construction corner records with the County (still going through plan check). The original monument was 1 1/4" IP with a 2" Brass Cap in "old style hand hole" (basically a small monument well with no lid), the monument he put in after construction is a spindle and brass washer in the surface. Is this adequate?

8771b of the PLS Act says "...They shall be reset in the surface of the new construction, a suitable monument box placed thereon, or permanent witness monuments set to perpetuate their location if any monument could be destroyed, damaged, covered, or otherwise obliterated..."

Since the surveyor set nail and tags in the curb as part of the pre-construction corner record, does that allow him to set such a "puny" monument to replace the IP? I have been discussing this with the County Surveyor and he has been very helpful, but stops short of offering his opinion whether the spindle is adequate enough.

Thanks for any and all opinions.

khuerth,
It looks like you have an old copy of the LS Act looking at your reference to 8771.
You can find a current version here: http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/index.shtml

[khuerth]

It looks like you have an old copy of the LS Act looking at your reference to 8771.

You're right I grabbed 2014...thanks for the link.

[khuerth]

Just last week I had to access several of them and each one was full to the brim with rusty red water

These work great to clean out the water, only a few feet long.

wellcleaner.jpg

[William Magee]

"shoots up to 70 feet".
I might better stick to the turkey baster. Less temptation.

[khuerth]

"shoots up to 70 feet".
I might better stick to the turkey baster. Less temptation.

now that you mention it.....it may be a good tool to get those distracted drivers attention!

[Jim Frame]

I used to carry a diaphragm bilge pump for monument wells, but I found that its internal valves wouldn't reliably seal after months of disuse, which often rendered it useless. I eventually replaced it with an inexpensive piston bilge pump similar to the water cannons shown above, and it works reliably every time.

[David Kendall]

Going off on a tangent here but Magee got me thinking (once again)...

One of my first California surveying experiences after moving from Texas was on a county survey crew in early 2012. The party chief, a man of great experience, instructed the younger I man to set up on a centerline monument in the middle of a 2 lane road with no shoulder speed limit 50 mph (most drive 60+) all day long for purposes of a topographic study. I was alarmed and a discussion ensued.

I had never seen this happen in Texas and I still don't understand the value. My smart ass comment at the time was that Texans had the good sense to move their control monuments over to the side of the road. I figured I was missing something but not sure what it was. Only centerline monuments I had tied previously were in downtown Austin and they were good and old (100 years plus). 5 years later and I still don't get it, It's written into the CA subdivision law that this archaic and senseless practice be perpetuated.

City of San Francisco has control on the sidewalks 100+ years old) all over the place. Caltrans has control on the row line or on the side in a relatively safe spot. I recently performed a survey where the best we could do was to shoot the tops of the mon wells with reflectorless because I wasn't going into that traffic for love or money nor was I sending a crew member in. Last year a central valley county worker got run over while his arm was in a well. People are clamoring for two man crews I'd encourage thinking about trying to start moving the damned control out of the line of traffic.

If it was up to me the law would be to set new monuments and reference old monuments with intervisible control in a prudent spot preferably visible ftom space and with published state plane coordinates.

So what am I missing? Jim Frame insinuates that the mons may last longer in the centerline. I've found plenty of ancient ones (three digit RE numbers) so I don't dispute that claim. We have all seen county and city road crews or contractors destroy monuments in sidewalks or centerlines while performing road improvement projects. That may be starting to change, maybe not. I don't see state DOT crews setting many monument wells in the middle of highways but why not? Please plastic card guys, enlighten me!!

[DWoolley]

I recently performed a survey where the best we could do was to shoot the tops of the mon wells with reflectorless because I wasn't going into that traffic for love or money nor was I sending a crew member in.

In my area the monuments were set and subsequently perpetuated in the centerline when the streets were less busy with traffic. Also, in the portions of our county which were sectionalized land the section corners are also the centerline intersections of the roads. For the most part, we're only working from that which existed. Prior to the use of cell phone and certainly texting, I didn't find most setups particularly dangerous with the proper traffic control and an experienced work partner. Texting has changed this perspective considerably. In the age of StarNet there is little reason to occupy a monument in a dangerous intersection. However, monuments which cannot be occupied - at our company- are measured from two different setups. Leaving the question of which is more dangerous a.) setting up an instrument or b.) leaving a glass up twice as long with a crew member out there 3 separate times - hard to say which is more dangerous.

As to the quoted section, what is the point of measuring a well lid reflectorless? Rephrased, what possible use would the measurement serve? Not a rhetorical question.

DWoolley

[Edward M Reading]

As someone that has surveyed in many areas of the country I can say that this seems to be a regional issue. It seems to be more common on the west coast. One thing that should be recognized is that there are many other areas of the country that do not use centerline monuments at all. Guess what? It works out great. Turns out that ROW monuments work just fine. Previously when I have told this to surveyors that have only worked in CA they say "but centerline monuments are more durable." Then in the next breath they whine about centerline monuments being destroyed by road projects. Centelrine monuments are dangerous, impractical, and less than permanent. Let's move on for the safety of our field personnel.

[David Kendall]

As to the quoted section, what is the point of measuring a well lid reflectorless? Rephrased, what possible use would the measurement serve?DWoolley

Well I reckoned the measurement was close enough to the monument for reference on a topo project without tight setback considerations. I suppose it could be a good centerline topo tie as well, we did the next highway centerline the same way (this time it was a state highway so monuments on the ROW limits). If it didn't fit we may have to look for more evidence or rent some fun 4' x 4' mesh "Survey Party" signs with the cool springy stands and contact the county for an encroacment permit and maybe put out a hundred plastic cones in order to document the material discrepancy. Those well lid ties fit the map and it turned out to be good enough for that particular project. We presume the monument is under it as described and move on to the next job.

I have kids, I'm no longer willing to put myself in harms way for a two-bit boundary tie. If your rodman is willing to go out in traffic 3 times for a centerline monument shot I suggest you give him a raise and buy an ADD policy for his family. Like I said before, I'm not sending anyone out there. I'll hop fences and wade into poison oak with the best of them but those super duty trucks hit hard, sorry boss.

[Jim Frame]

City of San Francisco has control on the sidewalks 100+ years old) all over the place.

That's because so many areas of the city haven't been subject to street improvement redevelopment in the last 100 years.

In my small city it's a struggle to retain monuments in the sidewalk, at least in the downtown area. There seems to be a constant stream of one- and two-lot projects that tear out the walk as part of redevelopment, and city staff can't seem to keep up with them to ensure compliance with §8771.

I appreciate the safety hazard associated with centerline monuments. In my opinion there's never a need to set up an instrument on one. I rarely even set up tripod-mounted targets on them, preferring to incorporate them into my measurement networks via pole-mounted prism. A braced prism pole with a 10-minute bubble in proper adjustment in the hands of a skilled operator is a lot faster than a tripod setup, with no sacrifice in accuracy.

Working with well monuments is a nuisance. Dealing with traffic, bailing out mud and water, banging on stuck lids (sometimes banging right on through stuck lids), and struggling to identify the markings all add up to a pain in the rear. But it beats the heck out of not having a monument to work with. In my experience centerline well monuments are more durable than marks set in the sidewalk, simply because ripping out a section of flatwork with a barely noticeable tagged nail is a lot more common than trenching through a monument well. Long live the !@#$#%^ canned monument!

[David Kendall]

In my small city it's a struggle to retain monuments in the sidewalk, at least in the downtown area. There seems to be a constant stream of one- and two-lot projects that tear out the walk as part of redevelopment, and city staff can't seem to keep up with them to ensure compliance

I need to make a distinction between urban and rural monuments. I don't find the city monuments as intimidating as the country roads. I'm fine with standing or kneeling in a downtown or neighborhood with traffic going 10-30 mph but when they are going 60 in a 50mph zone in a steady stream and obviously in a hurry I'll tend to defer

[khuerth]

Which brings me back to my original question, How should I approach this?

The County Surveyor came back and said "The County Transportation makes decisions about the monument well based on their cost estimate" We all know that response wouldn't fly as a private surveyor. Do I contact the surveyor doing the work and ask why a monument well wasn't replaced?

[Jim Frame]

Which brings me back to my original question, How should I approach this?

You might start by writing a letter to the County Surveyor explaining that, in your opinion, a spindle and washer set into the surface of AC pavement doesn't constitute a permanent monument as envisioned by §8771, and that the replacement monuments are of a decidedly less durable nature than those that they replaced. If that doesn't generate a positive response, I'd request an opinion from BPELSG on the matter.

[Olin Edmundson]

I had a job a year or two ago where we were surveying a parcel adjoining a larger lot in a hilly subdivision. We had great luck recovering points on our lot and nearby. Because it was easy, the crew also went down below to the street to pick up a few centerline monuments, but instead found the rims welded shut and came back with only shots on center. In this case the survey was strong, there were sufficient local monuments and the well mons were not needed. But out of curiosity, I took a look at the this string of lid shots. To my surprise, I was getting a tight pattern between these points, was within a couple minutes of my bearing base and could calc from them to our lot for 0.15 or so. So, while I was initially laughing at the value of these positions, in the end, I was kinda glad that we had them.

[Olin Edmundson]

Which brings me back to my original question, How should I approach this?

I don't see that you personally have any problem. You've got a tie to the spindel and the reference points and these are now tied to your survey and all your own control, and you've made your opinions be known to the CS. So, to put it bluntly, I'd say it's none of your business. If you felt strongly about this type of thing, I'd recommend pursuing a career as a County Surveyor, so that you could directly manage these projects and have them performed to your liking.

[Peter Ehlert]

Well monuments work, if constructed properly.
I worked in Santa Cruz right after the earthquake, they had well mons on the Sidewalk. Yep, we had to schedule our work for times when there was not a lot of pedestrian traffic, but I really liked the approach rather than being out in the street traffic.
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