Your opinion on digital signature

[sako]

Recently, I have been asked to add signature on PDF files by designers, architects. Also, some cities start asking the same question. First, I want to know what is Board's opinion. I thought of signing on a piece of paper, scan and add it to my pdf files, but there should be an optimal solution. I read that there are 3rd party certification authorities who certify my ID as signer of document. There will be additional annual charges to have this kind of service.
For those who elect to use digital signature, I would like to read your input to get a sense of which one to choose.

[Peter Ehlert]

Board Rules
411. Seal and Signature.
(e) The seal shall be capable of leaving a permanent ink representation, a permanent
impression, or an electronically-generated representation on the documents. The signature may
be applied to the documents electronically.
===
I never liked the idea of cut and paste My Signature to any document... I keenly remember when it happened to me back in the Xerox days, by a "helpful" person. Stuff went out that was Wrong, but it was well intended (mostly).

[Jim Frame]

The signature may be applied to the documents electronically.

I interpret this to mean a digital signature, rather than an image of a signature. I use Acrobat Pro with a self-signed certificate.

[ekparian]

This is a good general question.

Jim,

What do you do if they ask for your signature on a pdf of a topo map that is created as arch d (24x36) in autocad?

I have a dwg file that I keep my signature in. I traced it with a poly line from a scan... and made the plot standard blue. I keep the dwg file separate from where anyone at the office can access it. This works, but I would like to hear how others handle this problem.

When completing an elevation certificate, it is easy to use acrobat pro and sign electronically. Then I add in a security password so that nobody can "lift" my stamp or signature.

I'd love to hear others thoughts.

A couple years ago, we thought that someone "lifted" my bosses stamp and signature. It turned out that they did not, but while investigating, it was suggested that we keep a log designating each stamp and signature with a number, then associating the date, time, document name such as a notary does. This would also help prove that you did or didn't sign/stamp something if it was ever brought into question.

Drexyl Ekparian LS9362

[DWoolley]

Although allowed by the law, I do not use digital signatures. The reasoning is that in the event of an error or a liability I had an opportunity to review the work before it was sent out. As Peter Ehlert mentioned, well intentioned folks, maybe feeling the pressure of a deadline, could make the leap of transmitting work product without review - even with permission. I believe it is a slippery slope to use digital signatures when acting in responsible charge of several people. Besides, in the last 15 years, I have found little need to transmit signed work product. In the event we have to digitally transmit signed work product I sign it, scan it and email it. Alternatively, I add a note to the signature block and transmit the signed work product by mail - see the attached example.

As a map checker, we will not accept any map for review without a signature. Ideally, this means the responsible person has taken the time to review the map before submittal (and is in compliance with PLSA 8761). Experience tells me the technician simply applies the digital signature and submits the map for review or alternatively, the work product to the client. The faux signature is sufficient to saddle the professional with the liability - which suits me fine. Who is going to argue with a jackleg surveyor fashioning his own noose or using his own shovel to dig his professional grave? Not me.

DWoolley

[mpallamary]

I travel a bit. This last week I was in St. Louis. I do a lot of legal work and often have to sign certain documents such as legal declarations. That happened this week. I had to execute a document right away. I was able to do this through electronic signatures. It is a helpful tool and it is an option I use frequently. The notion about forgeries and the like is really a fallacy. Anything can be copied and any signature can be forged. The only difference between electronic signatures and electronic stamps is they are more convenient. When is the last time this problem arose? I know of one friend who used to work for CALTRANS. A drafter stole his electronic stamp and along with a co-worker, they were doing illegal surveys. They were caught, of course. Coincidentally, I purchased a new stamp this last week as mine was so old, it was fuzzy. I ordered it on line. I did not have to prove who I was or that I was licensed and it came in the mail two days later. As an aside, where are we going to be when our maps are filed electronically? These are modern times!


http://www.simplystamps.com/california_ ... Q3EALw_wcB

[Jim Frame]

What do you do if they ask for your signature on a pdf of a topo map that is created as arch d (24x36) in autocad?

My standard deliverables for design clients are a DWG and a digitally-signed PDF. I plot the DWG to a PDF, then sign using Acrobat Pro.

[sako]

What do you do if they ask for your signature on a pdf of a topo map that is created as arch d (24x36) in autocad?

My standard deliverables for design clients are a DWG and a digitally-signed PDF. I plot the DWG to a PDF, then sign using Acrobat Pro.

Jim, how the customers would authenticate your signature?

[Jim Frame]

Jim, how the customers would authenticate your signature?

The PDF contains the signature validation information:



If the file is altered, the signature is invalidated.

[sako]

So, you have not used a 3rd party certification service? Do you think it's not necessary?

[Jim Frame]

So, you have not used a 3rd party certification service? Do you think it's not necessary?

I don't, but I also don't claim to be an expert on digital signatures. My seat-of-the-pants assessment is that I created and control the certificate, and can attest to its authenticity. I'm mostly interested in having the signature invalidated when the document is altered, and using a self-signed digital ID accomplishes that.

[Anthony Maffia]

Affixing a scan of a signature in Acrobat then password protecting the document is no protection. The "password protection" can be removed by any number of programs and for free on the web. I hope the Acrobat digital signature is better but I have no experience.

Mr. Woolley, regarding your comment about not accepting unsigned maps for review, what is your take on 8761(c)?

Interim maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other land surveying documents shall include a notation as to the intended purpose of the map, plat, report, description, or other document, such as "preliminary" or "for examination only."

The preferred procedure in the offices where I've worked is to mark first submittals as "PRELIMINARY" with a date in red ink where the signature would go. IME, a first submittal has never been accepted and approved as-is by any map checker, and we don't want to enable someone to use a signed preliminary work product as a contract document or file it without our permission. The surveyors I've worked with cite 8761(c) as authorizing this practice, and it has been approved by the county surveyors, cities and towns that I work in.

[NickL]

My experience on this topic is that it's very simple to "forge" these e-sigs, and I find the signature information/meta data that Adobe adds to be both ugly and of little value -- so I strip it off. It is quite useful to "sign" a PDF drawing (size does not matter, in case someone thought it did..?) by dropping the sig-image onto the PDF before emailing. Practically speaking, it's hard to imagine getting into a situation where the "forged e-sig" caused monetary damage. If someone wants to forge your docs so bad, they will do it wet or dry and you'll still end up arguing it down the road, should problems arise.

re: 3rd party e-sig.. might be worthwhile if you frequently sign contracts that happen to be: larger than most surveyor's contracts, Public in nature, and where there is obvious 3rd-party-motive to forge. Personally, I find paying for 3rd-party e-sig tech to be an ultra-conservative move, and I'd be surprised if your clients actually cared either way.

[marchenko]

Using my computer mouse I right click drag an electronic image of my hand written signature into my document. Then release and select paste. Then I print my document to a PDF. The document is electronic, my signature is electronic. It is not a document simply because you are looking at it in a specific software ( PDF vs. DWG vs. DXF vs. etc..)

8761 (c) is silent as to adding signatures to interim documents, maps etc.

8761 (d) requires a signature of final maps (not referenced to the subdivision map act) , documents etc.

what they meant by final is you're done, not a final map as defined in the map act.