SB-2

[land butcher]

Our elected in CA are out of control. Constantly increasing existing fees/taxes, adding new fees/taxes, want to tax companies 50% of their Fed tax reduction, never reducing spending, and pass laws making it illegal for employers to cooperate with Federal authorities.... when will this insanity end

[Rob_LS]

Echoing BTaylor.

How does a Record of Survey constitute a transaction of real property?

27388.1. (a) (1) Commencing January 1, 2018, and except as provided in paragraph (2), in addition to any other recording fees specified in this code, a fee of seventy-five dollars ($75) shall be paid at the time of recording of every real estate instrument, paper, or notice required or permitted by law to be recorded, except those expressly exempted from payment of recording fees, per each single transaction per parcel of real property. The fee imposed by this section shall not exceed two hundred twenty-five dollars ($225). “Real estate instrument, paper, or notice” means a document relating to real property, including, but not limited to, the following: deed, grant deed, trustee’s deed, deed of trust, reconveyance, quit claim deed, fictitious deed of trust, assignment of deed of trust, request for notice of default, abstract of judgment, subordination agreement, declaration of homestead, abandonment of homestead, notice of default, release or discharge, easement, notice of trustee sale, notice of completion, UCC financing statement, mechanic’s lien, maps, and covenants, conditions, and restrictions.
(2) The fee described in paragraph (1) shall not be imposed on any real estate instrument, paper, or notice recorded in connection with a transfer subject to the imposition of a documentary transfer tax as defined in Section 11911 of the Revenue and Taxation Code or on any real estate instrument, paper, or notice recorded in connection with a transfer of real property that is a residential dwelling to an owner-occupier.

Looking back at the July 2017 CLSA Board of Directors meeting minutes, CLSA took an OPPOSE position on SB-2. CLSA was there, perhaps the legislature did not intend to include R of S?

[dedkad]

Interesting calculation. I would have thought that all subdivision maps would top out at $225, and associated notices perhaps the same.

The $225 cap is only for the affordable housing $75 per document fee. The rest of it is what the Recorder charges to record a document.

[Pulley]

This response is mainly to Keith and Olin. Like Rob mentions above, CLSA did oppose this legislation. Our Legislative Committee was not blindsided by the proposed legislation. CLSA also signed onto a "NASCAR" letter of opposition with multiple groups. In looking back, I found another letter of opposition with groups with way more clout than ourselves--California Land Title Association, the County Recorders Associate of California, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, the National Federation of Independent Businesses. The bill's authors got buy-in from the California Association of Realtors by exempting transfers subject to documentary transfer tax. As many will remember, this is the group that has opposed our far more modest attempts to attach small fees to recording for various purposes over the years.

It is going to be in our interest to get a Legislative Counsel opinion on this to get clarity throughout the state. I know Trinity County is applying the fee to the filing of Records of Survey.

[Olin Edmundson]

Pulley & Rob- thanks for the background info, that is good to hear that we were involved and made an attempt to prevent it.

[PLS7393]

Pulley & Rob- thanks for the background info, that is good to hear that we were involved and made an attempt to prevent it.

An attempt is one thing, but It appears we didn't fight this hard enough. Yes it will be interesting to see what the Legislative Counsel says, and how the state can interpret a record of survey to transfer real property, per SB-2.

Is Ralph Simoni still a consultant and Legislative Advocate for CLSA? I'd feel better knowing we got nowhere with him on our side.

[E_Page]

Keith,

Just how hard would you have us fight? Leg Comm did discuss it at length and Ralph did represent us in lobbying efforts. If you like, at the next Leg Comm meeting, I can put your name forward as a volunteer to organize a protest march for those matters we think we lack the clout as an organization to defeat. Will that work for you?

When it comes to trying to influence legislation, lobbying efforts come down to numbers and money. The Realtors' association has what, maybe 10 or 20 times the membership numbers as CLSA? They unquestionably have a lot more money.

[PLS7393]

When it comes to trying to influence legislation, lobbying efforts come down to numbers and money. The Realtors' association has what, maybe 10 or 20 times the membership numbers as CLSA? They unquestionably have a lot more money.

Thanks Evan,
It's just very frustrating to the private surveyor who has to deal with the public (clients) and we are the front line that have to continuously explain about our government structure at the clients cost. Be it review fees, filing fees, slow map reviews, etc.

Honestly I haven't seen CLSA do a whole bunch recently to help the situation and the Board should take notes. CLSA wonders why membership is going down, well I think the activities over the past few years is the answer.

[E_Page]

There are those who are trying to get meaningful and valuable activities going. Maybe we can find time at the Conference to talk.

With SB 2, by its wording, a RS should not be subject to the fee. Had the wording allowed for that, we may have opposed it more vigorously.

[land butcher]

I'm on the SEMA mailing list. Whenever there is a threat to the aftermarket vehicle industry they send out emails and list the members of the committee and urge us to contact the committee and out respective legislators.
Of course with our one party state and that party being tax and spend calling them is a waste of time. Most time, if I get a response, it's some generic thing that barely applies to the subject.

[Peter Ehlert]

@Evan: perhaps the Leg Comm needs to get "more public". Such as publish a quick info sheet every month or two. Raise some flags for us please!
Yes, I know that is the task of the Chapter Reps to glean that info and present to the locals, but there seems to be some communication missing here... hence the false impressions.

(I was a Leg Comm member for a few years many moons ago, it is a ton of thankless work reading and reviewing, etc.... kudos to the current committee for what they do for us)

[mpallamary]

There was a time when CLSA had a voice and was a force. In those days, we used to visit the capitol and we used to lobby our legislators and we had a phone tree/email tree and we had a very active legislative committee - two of them. One was proactive and the other reactive. There were no changes in the PLSA last year and as everyone would agree, there are a number of problems that need to be fixed yet nothing was done. We have no directive agenda; no mission; no goals; no movement.

It wasn't always like that. I remember very vibrant and active committees that worked a great deal. I remember when we had a very active and progressive public relations committee that reached out and informed the public and the legislature about what we did and who we are. I remember walking the halls of Sacramento lobbying for and against certain bills. I remember having elected officials coming to meetings (after being invited) and discussing issues of importance. I remember getting a lot of things done and I remember the camaraderie we all shared.

[E_Page]

Leg Comm is perhaps the busiest committee in CLSA. We typically meet 3 times per year: Early March, just after the bills are introduced to the legislature by their sponsors, mid to late June, and again in late September or early October.

Members typically get a summary report of bills potentially having an effect on survey practice from Ralph a week or two before the March meeting. That report has links to the full text and history of each bill. Ralph's summary is usually about 20 pages of reading, and a more thorough review of the actual legislation adds up to several hundred pages.

At this meeting, we rate the bills on a scale of Support, Favor, Watch, Not Favor, Oppose Unless Amended, Oppose, and Drop. Support and Oppose mean that Ralph, and quite often a committee member testify to the legislature (or applicable legislative committee) in person. Favor and Not Favor mean that we have Ralph prepare and deliver a letter expressing and explaining our position. Watch means that we take no position at that time but keep an eye on it in case changes are made which may cause us to change our position. Drop means that the bill is not related closely enough to survey practice to warrant our consideration. Even if dropped, Ralph remains aware of it in case it does morph into something of actual concern. Oppose Unless Amended means that we oppose the bill in its current form, but would change that position to Watch, Favor, or Support if the language is amended in the manner we suggest.

We also have ongoing matters that subcommittees are assigned to with the goal of either forming a legislative proposal, being involved in the rulemaking process of BPELSG or some other State agency, or determining if there is a need or opportunity to pursue a matter we believe would be beneficial to the profession.

That first meeting of the year often winnows out a fair amount of legislation to keep close track of or have some active response for. A few may be dropped, but often nearly half are rated as Watch. More often than not, the Watch-rated bills never develop into anything of real concern and eventually drop off the list due to legislative action or inaction. Occasionally, they develop into something that we take a more active position on.

Most Leg Comm members are part of an active subcommittee or are individually assigned (volunteered) to look deeper into a particular matter and report back to the Leg Comm.

The position ratings assigned at the March meeting are often very fluid as bills can change in detail or subject matter as they move through the houses of the legislature. By our June meeting, the legislature has mostly fleshed out both the subject matter and the major provisions. Our position ratings are more solid coming out of the June meeting. Some Watch positions will often move to Favor or Not Favor, and occasionally to Support or Oppose. Occasionally, a less active position of Favor or Not Favor will move to a more active Support or Oppose.

We spend less time (usually) on active legislation in June than in March, and still less in the Fall meeting. But the Fall meeting also usually includes looking ahead to matters we hope to get into legislation by planning to find legislative sponsors and getting any such proposals into the form we want or need to present it to potential sponsors.

For both the June and Fall meetings, we as individual members (should) review the actual bill language and history for changes since our previous meeting to prepare for the upcoming meeting (most do). There's less reading to do than for the March meeting, but it's still a lot to fit in to our spare time in the week or two just prior to a Leg Comm meeting.

With all of the discussion on the various bills and other matters, much of the discussion is preliminary in nature and can be potentially misleading or unduly get some into a panic, causing some to rush into action by contacting legislators, Board Members, etc. with less than all of the facts and doing something that may actually undermine CLSA's ability to influence the matter to the benefit of the profession. This is especially true of bills near the beginning of a legislative session and when in the early stages of discussing or considering other matters.

As much work as it is for the members of Leg Comm, it's quite a bit more for the Chair. All information to be released necessarily goes through the Chair for form and content. That's not for keeping things secret, but for ensuring that the info is accurate (since there is activity by subcommittees, individuals, and Ralph on behalf of Leg Comm, members may not be fully up to speed on many matters). The Chair acts as the hub for all the different activities and matters being addressed, so has the best overview of what info is current.

Leg Comm meetings are scheduled so that the Chair has a week or two to compile all the info useful to the general membership into the committee Board Report. Those who have attended the Board of Directors' meetings know that the Leg Comm report is always pretty extensive and takes significantly more time to deliver and discuss than the reports of any of the other committees.

The Chair also is responsible for keeping the meetings moving and on track. I've been on Leg Comm since 2004 or 2005, and during that time, the Chairmen have been very good herding the cats that have comprised that committee over the years.

Only occasionally would there be something of concern worth reporting to the general membership between meetings. The Leg Comm Quarterly Board Report is the best mechanism for getting info to the general membership, and it really is up to the chapter representatives (directors) to relay matters of particular concern to the members through local chapter meetings and/or newsletters. Except in rare circumstances, preparing a monthly summary for dissemination directly to the general membership would be unduly burdensome on the Chair, would be of little or no use over the Quarterly Report, and would be inappropriate for matters that the full Board has not had opportunity to weigh in on.

As to the charge that there is no directive and no agenda for Leg Comm, that's simply not true. There are matters being worked on and considered that may have very significant effects on survey practice in coming years. It is true that there are members at every level of CLSA who have very different ideas of what is important or appropriate for the CLSA or any of its committees to pursue. On at least one such matter, which I believe Mike is aware is being pursued to some degree or other within different parts of CLSA, there were aspects that are beyond the control of any in CLSA that had to settle out before moving forward to the point of asking the BoD to take a position or prescribe some action. When we do get to that point, the discussions as to what action is appropriate are sure to be lively.

Guests are welcomed for most Leg Comm discussion at meetings. For some, it might prove quite interesting. And although we have the personalities on the committee that makes for some lively and entertaining discussion at times, for many, perhaps most, the whole process might be about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If any are interested in participating as a guest or as a member, fill out the Committee Interest form found on the CLSA website and Kim or other CAMS staff will forward it to the Chairman or Chairmen of Leg Comm.

[steffan]

It seems worth noting that legislation currently being tracked by the Legislative Committee can be found in the portion of the CLSA website for members only. Once logged in, CLSA members can find it by picking the member resources tab, then pick on the current legislation tab.
This location on the web is also where one can find CLSA's worksheet for proposed legislation for those with a burning desire to change or add language in the law.

[Steve Martin]

I did hear Dallas Sweeney of BPELSG say that they were going to pursue an AG or Legislative Council opinion on the applicability of SB-2 to Records of Surveys. Perhaps the CLSA BPELSG Liaison could report on that effort at the Board meeting Saturday.

[Edward M Reading]

This was excellent Evan. Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.
Ed

Leg Comm is perhaps the busiest committee in CLSA. We typically meet 3 times per year: Early March, just after the bills are introduced to the legislature by their sponsors, mid to late June, and again in late September or early October.

Members typically get a summary report of bills potentially having an effect on survey practice from Ralph a week or two before the March meeting. That report has links to the full text and history of each bill. Ralph's summary is usually about 20 pages of reading, and a more thorough review of the actual legislation adds up to several hundred pages.

At this meeting, we rate the bills on a scale of Support, Favor, Watch, Not Favor, Oppose Unless Amended, Oppose, and Drop. Support and Oppose mean that Ralph, and quite often a committee member testify to the legislature (or applicable legislative committee) in person. Favor and Not Favor mean that we have Ralph prepare and deliver a letter expressing and explaining our position. Watch means that we take no position at that time but keep an eye on it in case changes are made which may cause us to change our position. Drop means that the bill is not related closely enough to survey practice to warrant our consideration. Even if dropped, Ralph remains aware of it in case it does morph into something of actual concern. Oppose Unless Amended means that we oppose the bill in its current form, but would change that position to Watch, Favor, or Support if the language is amended in the manner we suggest.

We also have ongoing matters that subcommittees are assigned to with the goal of either forming a legislative proposal, being involved in the rulemaking process of BPELSG or some other State agency, or determining if there is a need or opportunity to pursue a matter we believe would be beneficial to the profession.

That first meeting of the year often winnows out a fair amount of legislation to keep close track of or have some active response for. A few may be dropped, but often nearly half are rated as Watch. More often than not, the Watch-rated bills never develop into anything of real concern and eventually drop off the list due to legislative action or inaction. Occasionally, they develop into something that we take a more active position on.

Most Leg Comm members are part of an active subcommittee or are individually assigned (volunteered) to look deeper into a particular matter and report back to the Leg Comm.

The position ratings assigned at the March meeting are often very fluid as bills can change in detail or subject matter as they move through the houses of the legislature. By our June meeting, the legislature has mostly fleshed out both the subject matter and the major provisions. Our position ratings are more solid coming out of the June meeting. Some Watch positions will often move to Favor or Not Favor, and occasionally to Support or Oppose. Occasionally, a less active position of Favor or Not Favor will move to a more active Support or Oppose.

We spend less time (usually) on active legislation in June than in March, and still less in the Fall meeting. But the Fall meeting also usually includes looking ahead to matters we hope to get into legislation by planning to find legislative sponsors and getting any such proposals into the form we want or need to present it to potential sponsors.

For both the June and Fall meetings, we as individual members (should) review the actual bill language and history for changes since our previous meeting to prepare for the upcoming meeting (most do). There's less reading to do than for the March meeting, but it's still a lot to fit in to our spare time in the week or two just prior to a Leg Comm meeting.

With all of the discussion on the various bills and other matters, much of the discussion is preliminary in nature and can be potentially misleading or unduly get some into a panic, causing some to rush into action by contacting legislators, Board Members, etc. with less than all of the facts and doing something that may actually undermine CLSA's ability to influence the matter to the benefit of the profession. This is especially true of bills near the beginning of a legislative session and when in the early stages of discussing or considering other matters.

As much work as it is for the members of Leg Comm, it's quite a bit more for the Chair. All information to be released necessarily goes through the Chair for form and content. That's not for keeping things secret, but for ensuring that the info is accurate (since there is activity by subcommittees, individuals, and Ralph on behalf of Leg Comm, members may not be fully up to speed on many matters). The Chair acts as the hub for all the different activities and matters being addressed, so has the best overview of what info is current.

Leg Comm meetings are scheduled so that the Chair has a week or two to compile all the info useful to the general membership into the committee Board Report. Those who have attended the Board of Directors' meetings know that the Leg Comm report is always pretty extensive and takes significantly more time to deliver and discuss than the reports of any of the other committees.

The Chair also is responsible for keeping the meetings moving and on track. I've been on Leg Comm since 2004 or 2005, and during that time, the Chairmen have been very good herding the cats that have comprised that committee over the years.

Only occasionally would there be something of concern worth reporting to the general membership between meetings. The Leg Comm Quarterly Board Report is the best mechanism for getting info to the general membership, and it really is up to the chapter representatives (directors) to relay matters of particular concern to the members through local chapter meetings and/or newsletters. Except in rare circumstances, preparing a monthly summary for dissemination directly to the general membership would be unduly burdensome on the Chair, would be of little or no use over the Quarterly Report, and would be inappropriate for matters that the full Board has not had opportunity to weigh in on.

As to the charge that there is no directive and no agenda for Leg Comm, that's simply not true. There are matters being worked on and considered that may have very significant effects on survey practice in coming years. It is true that there are members at every level of CLSA who have very different ideas of what is important or appropriate for the CLSA or any of its committees to pursue. On at least one such matter, which I believe Mike is aware is being pursued to some degree or other within different parts of CLSA, there were aspects that are beyond the control of any in CLSA that had to settle out before moving forward to the point of asking the BoD to take a position or prescribe some action. When we do get to that point, the discussions as to what action is appropriate are sure to be lively.

Guests are welcomed for most Leg Comm discussion at meetings. For some, it might prove quite interesting. And although we have the personalities on the committee that makes for some lively and entertaining discussion at times, for many, perhaps most, the whole process might be about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If any are interested in participating as a guest or as a member, fill out the Committee Interest form found on the CLSA website and Kim or other CAMS staff will forward it to the Chairman or Chairmen of Leg Comm.

[LA Stevens]

Thanks Evan - I know everyone was surprised by the interpretation of the County Recorder's of this.

According to our map checker in Marin County the Recorder is also charging for a Certificate of Correction on a Record of Survey. Hopefully if BPELSG is going to ask for an opinion, they will have them address all of the documents that should not be included.

Marin County Fee:
Certificate of Correction/Modification
New Recording Fee = $14.00 first page and $3.00 each additional page (No Change)
Affordable Housing Fee (GC 27388.1) = $75.00
RE Fraud Fund (GC 27388) = $0 (Exempt)
Total Fee COC Single Page = $89.00 Total Fee COC Two (2) Pages = $92.00

[land butcher]

Certificate of Correction on a Record of Survey. Brain fog, what is this?

[Warren Smith]

Just like on a subdivision map. PLSA section 8770.5, which refers to its counterpart in the SMA.

[David Kendall]

This was excellent Evan. Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

Me too, very informative I never heard any of that before and will be looking up the committee interest form to learn more. Thanks again!

[Warren Smith]

SB2 Exemption Note on Final Map.JPG

Our Recorder just filed a final map without collecting the SB2 surcharge. The surveyor placed a note on the title sheet stating:

"Exempt from fee per GC 27388.1; document recorded in connection with a concurrent transfer subject to the imposition of documentary transfer tax."

There likely was an escrow document which the title company representative cross-referenced to the map book and page of the filed map.

The note was hand-written ...

[Jason Gasser]

Thank you to all for the information, updates and perspectives. I found the current legislation section described by Steffan, which has the general summaries of the bills being tracked. In the BOD agenda packets, I found the position taken on a given bill being tracked.

I’m wanting to also find a source for the analysis performed and/or basis of rationale for the position taken by CLSA on any given piece of legislation.
General question: Is such information available outside of attending the Leg Comm meetings?
Specific question: What was CLSA’s reason for opposing SB 2?

I hope I didn’t miss something spelled out earlier in this thread or in the archived BOD agenda packets.

[E_Page]

Sometimes, the reasons behind a Leg Comm position recommendation are included in the Chairman's quarterly report. Other times, the Chairman will briefly go over the reasoning while giving the report at the BoD meeting.

I don't recall specifically if the reasoning was included in the quarterly report submitted shortly after the position was voted on. You would have to look at the BoD package from that meeting.

[MikeT]

Any update on this? Did CLSA discuss this at the last Board meeting regarding getting an AG opinion?

[Administrator]

Hi everyone,
CLSA will host a webinar on SB 2 on February 28th from 2pm-3pm. CLSA's Legislative Advocate, Mike Belote & Lexie Howard will be presenting. The recording of the webinar will be available in the Members Only section of the CLSA website afterwards. Send an email to CLSA Headquarters if you'd like to register for the webinar.
Thank you,
Kim Oreno