CORNER RECORD VS RECORD OF SURVEY

[kwilson]

Question - When a County Surveyor deems that a survey should be filed as a Record of Survey but the Surveyor feels it is a Corner Record what is the process for handling this?

Case in point. Material discrepancy. Surveyor thinks the differences between measured and record are minor and not a material discrepancy. County Surveyor does not agree.

Ken Wilson
LS5571

[LA Stevens]

Unfortunately, many do not understand what is a material vs. a minor discrepancy. Why anyone expects us to be measuring the same as someone who measured something with different equipment and effort is beyond me.

Attached is one way to handle it. Much less care in measuring was occurring during that time frame, but they are truly minor discrepancies and very common in this County. I like the fact that he showed what he measured, so the original points can be replaced accurately if destroyed.

I would try to educate the surveyor on what constitutes a material vs. a minor discrepancy vs. a note being written on a survey. That can open you up to many questions by others that may agree with the note and use it against you.

Good luck.

[dmi]

force file option?

[Jim Frame]

I probably would have filed a ROS on the Seascape survey, but I appreciate the cost disencentive for doing so and agree that material discrepancy is a judgment call. Having the CS put a note on your Corner Record seems to me like a reasonable way of handling it; he's not impugning the survey, he's simply disagreeing with the document used to memorialize it. If the CS believes it's a clear case of statutory violation, his avenue of redress is to file a complaint with BPELSG.

[btaylor]

I have no problem with that map being a Corner Record. Looks like things fit very well considering when they were originally set.

[wingding]

In the counties I work in they would reject it as a corner record because of minimum text sizes

[Peter Ehlert]

good reason to bring back multiple map sheets on corner records.
it seems that this as all about generating revenue... protecting the public coffers

[David Kendall]

force file option?

Is there a statutory requirement for a CS to file a CR? I’m unaware of it. I’ve seen a case where the CS placed a note then refused to sign or file the CR so it sat in a drawer in his office for a few years until he retired then the next CS found it and distributed it as part of the ‘unfiled map’ collection.

I found this ironic in that I did some research regarding a county retracement which revealed the same righteous CS spent weeks of public money locating corners which had not been recovered for decades and wrote an extensive survey report for his records then filed nothing. At least $15000 of public field time and no record. Same CS approved his own maps so it would have been a slam dunk drafting exercise but nothing. Guess I get to go do the work again, someday I’ll have to ask him about that. I feel fortunate that I have a copy of his report.

I tell this story to say that at the end of the day the county surveyor is human therefore subject to making a wrong or unpopular judgment and they all mean well in the name of public service but the political situation corrodes even the best intentions. It’s a corrupt public office (as they all are in some way), no two ways about it and no solution.

Mr Wilson I suppose you have several choices:

1) begin a lobbying campaign to have the requirement for CS review on filed surveys removed from the LS act

2) be thankful for the financial security this political situation provides for CA land surveyors and humbly file the record of survey, submitting your art to apparently random personal whims and 5 page manifestos written at $100+ per hour which you or your client will sometimes have to shell out to support. It’s an impossible system but there are plenty of other states where surveyors can barely make a living and CA maps are generally of higher quality than others I’ve seen without CS review. Also the abundant public record is certainly a benefit to the community and it would surely be diminished over time in choice #1.

3) I suppose you could go get a job as a CS and attempt to subvert the system. There are plenty of openings

It’s a tough cost-benefit analysis but this is the hand we’re dealt. Hold em or fold em sir

[Jim Frame]

Is there a statutory requirement for a CS to file a CR?

§8773.2(c) reads, in part:

If the matters appearing on the corner record cannot be agreed upon by the licensed land surveyor or the licensed civil engineer and the county surveyor within 10 working days after the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer resubmits and requests the corner record be filed without further change, an explanation of the differences shall be noted on the corner record and it shall be submitted to and filed by the county surveyor.

[Warren Smith]

David K,

PLSA section 8773.2 (c) does address mandatory filing after disagreement and resubmittal with an agreed note about the differences, or separate notes on the corner record.

We would accept this as a retracement of a previously filed map. The lettering size is a de minimus issue, with today's scanning technology.

[LA Stevens]

I've been surveying in Marin County, where the Seacape subdivision is, for almost 40 years and few tenths between monuments is very common occurrence in the County. I do not believe the County Surveyor had ever performed a field survey in Marin when the CR was filed. He was hired from Southern California where I suspect they have more accurate surveys. The surveyor even states in his notes that the variations are common in this area.

If I was a client and found out that you filed a Record of Survey and I was charged a significant amount for the preparation and filing, when it was not required, I'd have a problem with that practitioner.

Depending upon the area, I think a judge would have great sympathy for the client. On the other hand if you were in a City with 0 setbacks, that may be different.

[Jim Frame]

If I was a client and found out that you filed a Record of Survey and I was charged a significant amount for the preparation and filing, when it was not required, I'd have a problem with that practitioner...Depending upon the area, I think a judge would have great sympathy for the client.

Fortunately, my clients are presumed -- by me and by the law -- to be capable of entering into contracts. Unless I have a very strong belief that a boundary survey won't require a ROS, I include the preparation and filing of same in the agreement. If conditions later reveal that, in my opinion, a ROS is not required, I reduce the charges accordingly. Although clients tend to like that, it doesn't happen very often in my experience.

If the client chooses not to solicit a proposal from another surveyor for comparison, that's his prerogative. But for him to decide ex post facto that his judgment regarding the necessity of filing a ROS outweighs mine is hardly a legitimate cause of legal action. Were he to bring such, the Small Claims judge or commissioner -- it's very unlikely that a complaint like that would ever be brought in Superior Court due to the expense -- is almost certainly going to read the contract terms and say, "Why are you here?"

Worst case scenario: I lose future business from that client, but I sleep better at night believing that I complied with the statute.

[MikeT]

I believe that a Corner Record is definitely fine on that survey. Minor discrepancy in my opinion.

[land butcher]

Is there a statutory requirement for a CS to file a CR?

§8773.2(c) reads, in part:

If the matters appearing on the corner record cannot be agreed upon by the licensed land surveyor or the licensed civil engineer and the county surveyor within 10 working days after the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer resubmits and requests the corner record be filed without further change, an explanation of the differences shall be noted on the corner record and it shall be submitted to and filed by the county surveyor.

And what if the CS subsequently refuses to file the CR?

[bruce hall]

doesn't say a whole lot 'bout Craig. too bad. it was a good example of a corner record.

[Warren Smith]

"And what if the CS subsequently refuses to file the CR?"

Interesting question. Whereas PLSA section 8768.5 does speak to filing an action to compel the filing of a record of survey with the Recorder, it doesn't indicate that the same can be done for a corner record. It may be that CRs are filed with the County Surveyor, so the leverage is circular. Worth investigating, I suppose. It would be enforcement of a mandated requirement, similar to obtaining a creditor judgment; then there is the matter of collection. A different process for an unwilling party.

[Jim Frame]

And what if the CS subsequently refuses to file the CR?

Writ of mandamus?

[land butcher]

And what if the CS subsequently refuses to file the CR?

Writ of mandamus?

LOL That could take years and $$$$$$$$$. I would guess that doesn't happen very often, if ever, with survey maps.

[David Kendall]

§8773.2(c) reads, in part:
If the matters appearing on the corner record cannot be agreed upon by the licensed land surveyor or the licensed civil engineer and the county surveyor within 10 working days after the licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer resubmits and requests the corner record be filed without further change, an explanation of the differences shall be noted on the corner record and it shall be submitted to and filed by the county surveyor.

How is it then that the CS feels they have the discretion to approve or deny a corner record based on their perception of a material discrepancy? I’ve been in Wilson’s shoes more than once and in order to get the CR filed had to remove ties from the sketch that a CS considered controversial. This statute indicates that the only authority they have is to add a note like the one shown and file it. I don’t understand....

[PLS7393]

Ken, at least the CS notified you that he feels a RS is required. I would contact him/her and discuss the issues and try to understand their reasoning. If it is only material discrepancy If you have facts that they are not aware of, maybe they will understand where one professional's opinion is valid.

I have seen the perspective from one CS to another CS differ, just as I have seen the perspective from one surveyor to another surveyor when interpreting the PLS Act. It isn't a perfect world, nor is the PLS Act a perfect document. It is suppose to give the practitioner clear guidelines, but there are areas open for interpretation. This is true on a number of issues I am familiar with between northern and southern California. For instance, what is a permanent monument with your LS marking? Southern CA does not allow plastic caps on rebar, but Northern CA does? There are definitely situations where a plastic cap is an appropriate way to mark your monument. Another issue is the interpretation on what is a "Reference Monument". These are merely facts that there are different interpretations between professionals.

Bottom line is it is best that we get maps on file to protect the public. Does it truly matter if a record of survey is filed rather than a corner record?

[Jim Frame]

Does it truly matter if a record of survey is filed rather than a corner record?

Though neither document imparts constructive notice, I've seen many title reports that reference matters disclosed by Records of Survey, but I've never seen a title report that refers to a Corner Record.