Question on Shortage of Surveyors

[Ric7308]

The Board received a comment pertaining to a shortage of land surveyors, particularity in the fire-damaged areas, and also asking typically how land surveyors are involved in situations like that.

Of course, we have ideas on these questions, but wanted to reach out to you all to see what insight the professional community may offer:

1. Are you seeing, hearing, or otherwise experiencing a shortage in the availability of land surveyors in your area?

2. If yes to question 1, how is that being characterized or please briefly describe what you've experienced and for what area(s).

3. For those that have recently provided/performed surveying services in the most recent fire-damaged areas (last 1-2 years), what activities are you typically involved in?

4. We are aware of several areas where collaboration between private surveyors and even involving public agencies have occurred in an effort to help those impacted by the fire damages. If you've been involved in or aware of something like this, please briefly describe those efforts.

Thank you for your time

[David Kendall]

1. There is a shortage of qualified technicians in the North Bay Area. I believe there are sufficient numbers of licensees to handle the workload

2. I find myself consumed with clerical tasks, equipment maintenance, correspondence, data collection, research and drafting work while as a LS I could probably be doing something more productive. It would be more efficient for me to pay someone else to perform these tasks so that I could focus on analysis, review and training aspects instead of rote button pushing. I believe this is a common recruitment and training issue (certainly not exclusive to land surveying) and if an effort were made to address it could serve to strengthen our future numbers of professionals as well as our current abilities to take on more work. While I enjoy many of these tasks, I cannot deny the loss in productivity

3. Boundary retracement, corner establishment (and re-re-establishment - the utility companies and fence builders are killing us with monument destruction!) and marking historic deed and easement lines, lot line adjustment

4. I'm not seeing anything meaningful on this front. County Surveyor of Sonoma has used monument preservation funds to cover map review fees for fire victims which is extremely generous. Sonoma CLSA chapter has created a GIS of fire lots which has resulted in a half-hearted participation and it is updated about twice a year, not much help but it is something and the dozen surveyors who participate are greatly appreciated (usually the same ones who show up to the CLSA meeting). There was also an effort to educate the public through an informational pamphlet. I feel that much more could have been done with regards to sharing of survey data, mapping collaboration and monument preservation/conservation if the land surveying community were truly interested in serving the public and reducing duplication of efforts (e.g. 10 surveyors measuring and mapping the same street centerline on 10 corner records for control of the 20 lots which burned on that ROW frontage) Maybe some emergency legislation could have helped in this regard as we are bound to certain standards and protocols which sometimes seem insensible under these circumstances.

I saw an opportunity in the small lot subdivisions of Santa Rosa for surveyors to do something novel with regards to collaboration. Everyone else apparently saw too much hassle and liability. The experience was professionally disappointing to me. I feel like there was a sense of urgency in the beginning (which later proved to be false as nothing is happening quickly enough with regards to rebuilding) that made us feel like we needed to do something immediately instead of planning out a well reasoned response to the problem.

The monument destruction was horrific and in my opinion downright negligence on the part of the City to allow utility and large scale construction companies to systematically destroy mass quantities of original private subdivision monuments without notice to the community or any commitment to file a timely record. If there are small lot subdivisions recently burned in Santa Barbara, Malibu, Paradise or Redding then this would be my greatest caution to those communities. It's bad enough to have to establish the lot corners on a fire lot while you are crunching around in someone's former kitchen but to then have to again reset them twice in the time it takes to get the house rebuilt due to poor management and coordination is egregious. I think we can do better

[mpallamary]

I did my best to bring these problems to light as well as to advance a number of solutions based upon the experiences we had in San Diego. There was no interest or follow up from CLSA.

I am not certain how to respond other than myself and others tried and we tried very hard as we recognized this was a problem and these things were going to happen.

Flummoxed.

[mpallamary]

http://clsaforum.californiasurveyors.or ... ire#p46520

[E_Page]

Mike, I saw your presentation on surveyors' response to wildfire areas and thought it was quite good. But I don't necessarily think it is something that the CLSA needs to or should pile on to the existing concerns being dealt with by any of the existing committees (all comprised of unpaid volunteers).

I do believe that it would be a good idea for CLSA to support an effort to connect those affected by wildfires and needing survey services with surveyors who are qualified and willing to do the work. But the first requirement for that effort, and related CLSA support, is for someone who has a keen awareness of the need, the time, energy and willingness to lead the coordination effort.

I suspect that one of the biggest obstacles in finding surveyors to do the work is the lack of an effective way for those needing the services to connect with those willing to do the work. That one might be the biggest obstacle, but I bet that the biggest obstacle is actually that those needing survey services in wildfire areas can't find surveyors to do the work at the costs they are willing to pay.

Just as there was extensive damage to private property and public civil infrastructure, there was extensive damage to the physical evidence and quite likely also to the documentary record for the land tenure and boundary infrastructure. Unless you could get all landowners in an affected area to agree to accept the results of the widespread application of proration and other mathematical solutions where there is a paucity of evidence, I expect that the costs of re-establishing boundaries by standard and otherwise proper survey procedures would be darn near double what it would have been before the fire.

Another option for mitigating survey costs would be if the locals came together to form a corporation or other organizational structure for the purposes of hiring, coordinating with, and paying surveyors (and for other similar service needs). Similarly, on the surveyors' side of the matter, several firms would need to cooperate in a business structure, probably where there is a prime consultant and several sub-consultants. They would also need to cooperate on practice standards, including but not limited to research, field procedures, record keeping, CAD and document standards, QA/QC procedures (incl. peer review), etc.

Working in some areas of fire affected areas might require HazMat certified crew members and HazMat gear and procedures. That adds an entire level of costs that would not have been required pre-fire. For the scope or amount of work in larger wildfire affected areas, the equipment costs would be fairly nominal, but training (40 hr course for all field employees) is expensive and having to work in gear and/or adhering to special procedures slows down productivity tremendously.

The only other option I see is for the State to fund the effort under emergency legislation and funding, putting one agency or another in charge of the effort and making extensive use of private contracts.

I don't believe there's a shortage of surveyors overall, although there may be temporary shortages during periods of high economic growth, and particularly where situations like recovering from widespread devastation (like wildfires) occurs in times of good economic growth. When things begin to slow down, surveyors are among the first and hardest hit. along these lines, the problem isn't a shortage of surveyors, it's the impatience and unreasonable monetary expectations of many (most) of those requiring survey services.

I agree with David Kendall as to a shortage of qualified sub- or paraprofessional staff. But again, when we lay our technical staff off as soon as we begin to run low on billable hours for them, is it reasonable to expect them to simply hang out until some undetermined time in the future when we do have billable hours? And, while we have them working for us, how much informal training (mentoring) and/or formal training are we providing for them? Based on my experience and observations, I'd say the occurrence of providing any training opportunities to non-professional staff is pretty low and often non-existent. How can we expect anything other than mostly underqualified staff when it's time to ramp up the manpower again?

[E_Page]

Ric,

What type of specifics are you hearing from those looking for surveyors to work in wildfire areas?

Or, are you only hearing generalities at this point and trying to discern the specifics?

[DWoolley]

Interesting topic.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:

Employment of surveyors is projected to grow 11 percent from 2016 to 2026, faster than the average for all occupations.  Surveyors will continue to be needed to certify boundary lines, work on resource extraction projects, and review sites for construction.

Ric Moore Questions:

1.  Are you seeing, hearing, or otherwise experiencing a shortage on the availability of land surveyors in your area? 

My particular area of familiarity is Los Angeles, Orange and north San Diego counties.  However, through professional associations, I have semi-regular contact with professionals throughout the state.  The experience described below is generally consistent throughout multiple jurisdictions.   The question is not accurately or completely answered with a simple yes or no.  

Presumably, what is meant by a shortage of "land surveyors" is referring to licensed land surveyors, not the unlicensed technicians.  

Experienced Mapping Surveyors

Yes, there is a shortage of licensed land surveyors.  Well trained licensed land surveyors, particularly those with experince in boundary, legal descriptions and mapping skills, are practically unicorns.  These folks are in high demand and in especially short supply. 

Field Surveyors

I am familiar with one firm that has had standing request,  for over 6 months,  for a sober - during working hours - licensed party chief from Local 12.  Even the LSITs in Local 12 appear to be as scarce as hen's teeth.  The number of LSITs is relevant to demonstrate the number of potential licensure candidates is also very low from that hiring pool.  Essentially, there is no help and ain't none comin'.

Caltrans

In the last 18-24 months, Caltrans has hired away many licenses from the private sector and local agencies.  Caltrans currently offers a generous pay package that exceeds most other public agencies.  This has created positions vacated by licensees that will go unfilled or will be backfilled by technicians (many of which remain unlicensed after having worked in the industry 10, 20, 30 years). Many, if not most, of these technicians will never become licensed.  As the technicians backfill the positions previously held by licensees the professional community will further realize a degradation of the practice and certainly, the professional stature.  Also, most licensees that work for public agencies do not moonlight. As the agencies expand their licensed workforce the private sector will have less practitioners.

Retirement Qualified Surveyors

The licensed crowd has a large retirement ready population.  Many of these folks suffered sizable losses during the recession and have delayed retirement to recoup some of their economic losses.  The minute the current economic wave crashes most of these folks will exit the marketplace.  

Due to the aging population of licensees, we can anticipate The Reaper will gunny sack a few hundred more over the next few years.  

The Character of Some Surveyors

Placing demands or restrictions on the licensed land surveyor hiring pool, such as honesty and/or generally law abiding, eliminates another sizable swath of the licensed population.  

The Business of Land Surveying

Another harbinger is the current pressure on businesses, especially honest businesses - even as the United States is realizing a 3.6 unemployment rate - to stay in business.  The businesses struggling the most are the small (less than 5 people) and the biggest firms.  For reasons I do not entirely understand, the middle sized firms, 10 to 20 people, seem to have realized less instability.  The big firm's struggles are camouflaged by the fact they have a sizable workforce and are not suffering the visual drama of struggling to keep their doors open.  On the contrary, the small firms have the thrashing about appearance of a man that has fallen through the ice.  The next mild recession will finish off many of the small firms - which will free up some mildly traumatized licensees for the hiring pool.  

Yes, all things considered, I believe there is a shortage of licensed land surveyors that will be progressively worse over time.  

2. If yes to question 1, how is that being characterized or briefly [why briefly?] describe what you have experienced and for what area (s).  

Please see the answer to question 1 above.

Questions 3 and 4 are N/A to me.

I believe many of the fire damaged areas are largely rural. In the current economy there is little reason incur the travel and per diem to work in these areas. Moreover, as Evan Page detailed, it is likely few people are willing to pay the cost of a survey. When San Diego county burned, many years back, there were unlicensed crews coming in from adjacent states setting "temporary" subdivision corners. I recall discussions from that era and if memory serves me correctly, there was an article with a photo of a lathe on a lot.

I am keenly interested in other people's perspectives on this topic and any related information.

DWoolley

[LS_8750]

Ric,
Response, in order:

1. No shortage in my experience, most fire related work has been in relatively urban environments;
2. No comment;
3. Boundary and topographic surveys for site re-development are typical;
4. I believe Sonoma County Surveyor, or Public Works, waived R/S review fees for fire related parcels. In Sonoma County, there has been efforts by local surveyors to create a .kmz file, or gis file, to locate where consultants have been working - we contributed to that for a while but now I'm not sure if that file, or database, is being updated. Marginally useful perhaps...

Primary issues I've seen in the wake of the fires is the destruction of monuments due to the site clearing. I do not foresee in the future that changing, who the hell is going to wait for the surveyors to come in and locate the monuments before the clearing begins. Not happening and I have no problem with that.

I've seen a lot of melted plastic pipe plugs and rebar caps. Those things are not durable.

In the urbanized areas we've worked in the North Bay, many of the curb and gutters were marked with cut crosses (monuments) as called for on the subdivision maps. The utility companies are blowing those out. We have been fortunate though, the mapping and field work mostly done in the 1980s and 1990s correlate well, which makes the majority of the work just a math exercise anyway.

I'm more curious about how they are going about matters on the Big Island, when the monuments are buried under 30 feet of lava, or have been vaporized.

[DWoolley]

An astute reader will find it curious I believe there is a shortage of licensed land surveyors and yet, there is economic pressure on the small and large businesses. I believe this is due to the changing marketplace.

Some of the traditional services are A. no longer in demand or; B. being performed by unlicensed people, mostly general contractors or; C. performed by applying dishonest practices that exceeds the honest practitioner's threshold.

DWoolley

[MikeT]

1. Are you seeing, hearing, or otherwise experiencing a shortage in the availability of land surveyors in your area? YES.

2. If yes to question 1, how is that being characterized or please briefly describe what you've experienced and for what area(s). IT SEEMS THAT
LESS AND LESS SURVEYORS IN THE AREAS I WORK (coastal San Mateo County) ARE NOT GOING TO THESE TYPE OF AREAS (rural)

3. For those that have recently provided/performed surveying services in the most recent fire-damaged areas (last 1-2 years), what activities are you typically involved in? N/A

4. We are aware of several areas where collaboration between private surveyors and even involving public agencies have occurred in an effort to help those impacted by the fire damages. If you've been involved in or aware of something like this, please briefly describe those efforts.

[subman]

1. Are you seeing, hearing, or otherwise experiencing a shortage in the availability of land surveyors in your area?

No I am not

2. If yes to question 1, how is that being characterized or please briefly describe what you've experienced and for what area(s).

NA

3. For those that have recently provided/performed surveying services in the most recent fire-damaged areas (last 1-2 years), what activities are you typically involved in?

I have done three jobs in Ventura and I job in Santa Paula. They are currently on-going thru the permit process. My scope on the Ventura jobs was
boundary, topo and grading plan (yes I am dual licensed, not a pre-1982). I suspect I will do construction staking also. The were suburb hillside tract
lots in the city. The Santa Paula job involved a lengthy traverse and extensive Easter egg hunting that is still ongoing

4. We are aware of several areas where collaboration between private surveyors and even involving public agencies have occurred in an effort to help those impacted by the fire damages. If you've been involved in or aware of something like this, please briefly describe those efforts.

Since I am retired now, I don't have first hand information, but I know Los Angeles COUNTY did a large out reach to the communitiess impacted

[PLS7393]

1. Are you seeing, hearing, or otherwise experiencing a shortage in the availability of land surveyors in your area?

Not necessarily, but some may see a 6-8 week backlog for a new larger project as being a shortage, and I can not get to their project within one week.

2. If yes to question 1, how is that being characterized or please briefly describe what you've experienced and for what area(s).

If you take #1 as a yes, I have to question why I see surveyors from the Central Valley, and Fairfield working in Fremont?
If the fire zones truly need surveyors, why aren't these individuals setting up shop where they are truly needed?
They honestly can't be less expensive if they actually charge for travel time to Fremont, but maybe they drive for free???
I will travel up to one hour for a project before additional travel costs get incorporated into an estimate, and have received I think two calls about fire
damaged areas. I've directed both homeowner's to go to CLSA "Find a Surveyor" as a solid reference.

3. For those that have recently provided/performed surveying services in the most recent fire-damaged areas (last 1-2 years), what activities are you typically involved in? N/A