Private Survey Records

[mpallamary]

I would like to elicit comments from anyone who has dealt with private survey records. In some instances, cities and counties will not accept them as evidence of boundary lines. I have also heard, anecdotally that the state board has stated that it is a violation of the Land Surveyors Act to possess private records. Some agencies allow private records to be filed and others do not.

Has anyone had any experiences they are willing to share? Is anyone aware of any cases involving the use and acceptance of private survey records? Does anyone have any thoughts, one way or the other on this topic.

On a related topic, the PLSA contains the provisions under 8760.

Administration of oaths

Every licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer may administer and certify oaths:

(a) When it becomes necessary to take testimony for the identification or establishment
of old, lost or obliterated corners.

(b) When a corner or monument is found in a perishable condition, and it appears
desirable that evidence concerning it be perpetuated.

(c) When the importance of the survey makes it desirable, to administer an oath to his
assistants for the faithful performance of their duty.

A record of oaths shall be preserved as part of the field notes of the survey and a
memorandum of them shall be made on the record of survey filed under this article.

Under the PLSA, a surveyor is required to maintain "field notes of the survey." What does this mean? Are these not private notes? How long are surveyors supposed to maintain these records? Are these the only private notes that are to be maintained?

Thank you all for your thoughts. I welcome them all.

Be safe.

[Jim Frame]

In some instances, cities and counties will not accept them as evidence of boundary lines.

I find this laughable, at least in regard to Records of Survey. The County Surveyor has no authority to determine the acceptability of boundary evidence. The PLS Act has provisions for dealing with disagreements between the CS and the submitting surveyor, and in extreme cases the CS can file a complaint with BPELSG about the submitting surveyor's competence or negligence in a separate action, but the CS is bound by law to file the ROS once the statutory provisions have been met.

[mpallamary]

Yes, I agree. I had an instance in San Diego with the City Surveyor where I had filed an exhaustive Record of Survey on a parcel of land. One of the reasons surveyors file a Record of Survey first, is because the fees are fixed as opposed to going on forever under a "deposit" account. It is not uncommon for the city to charge twice as much to check as survey as it did to prepare.

After I filed and recorded the survey, I prepared a minor subdivision map. The city surveyor stated that I could not use the ROS as the basis for the map and that I had to submit an identical version of the recorded ROS to prove the boundary up to the satisfaction of the city as they would not consider the ROS as sufficiently satisfying the city's requirements.

I have a Certificate of Compliance in process with the city now. It took me 2 hours to prepare the legal description and it took the city 8 hours to check.

[Jim Frame]

One of the reasons surveyors file a Record of Survey first, is because the fees are fixed as opposed to going on forever under a "deposit" account.

This isn't universal, unfortunately. Sacramento County, for example, charges a $500 initial deposit, but actual charges must be paid prior to map filing even if they exceed $500. In Yolo County it's a fixed fee of $773.80 per sheet for up to 3 sheets, but anything over 3 sheets is a $2,000.00 deposit and actual charges thereafter. I expect there are more counties with variable ROS map checking fees.

[hellsangle]

I have also heard, anecdotally that the state board has stated that it is a violation of the Land Surveyors Act to possess private records.

I find that hard to believe, Mike. I'd like to see that in writing from the Board. (They are not that stupid.)

Evidence is Evidence. Recorded or otherwise.

Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder

[mpallamary]

That is why I said anecdotally. I am looking for similar experiences. Here's another regarding private records. The city of San Diego destroyed control in an entire neighborhood. I was in the field, on the phone, speaking to the city surveyor, describing the destruction of dozens of record monuments. They did nothing. I explained to them that they needed to preserve the control. This was in La Jolla in a neighborhood of $5M homes. I filed several complaints with the board over a span of seven years. Nothing was done. I was trying to reset record monuments and explained to the city that I had a lot of private control in the neighborhood and at this time, it might be the best evidence. The issue got heated and the city demanded I give ALL of my private notes to them and if I did not, they would file a state board complaint. I told them I had no duty to give up my proprietary files. I had to hire a lawyer to protect my business. I had to wrestle with the board for a couple years. As of this time, no one at the city has been held responsible for the massive destruction of vital recorded monuments. The city demanded that I comply with their interpretation of 8771 (e):

It shall be the duty of every licensed land surveyor or licensed civil engineer legally authorized to practice land surveying to assist the governmental agency in matters of maps, field notes, and other pertinent records. Monuments set to mark the limiting lines of highways, roads, streets or right-of-way or easement lines shall not be deemed adequate for this purpose unless specifically noted on the corner record or record of survey of the improvement works with direct ties in bearing or azimuth and distance between these and other monuments of record.

The city stated that under this provision I had to turn over 40 years worth of ALL my private control work to them, notwithstanding I invested all that time to develop my private network. My lawyer disagreed with the city, of course. To this day, the vast majority of the monuments are gone.

[Jim Frame]

I would agree that it's your duty to assist the city. However, it's not your duty to subsidize the city, especially in light of the fact that the city is responsible for the monument destruction. If it were me, I'd offer to assist the city (thereby meeting my statutory duty) by restoring the obliterated monument locations and filing a ROS documenting same, all at my customary rates.

[mpallamary]

Thanks I did that but they refused. After I got my lawyer involved, they stopped their demands. Instead, they reset a few of the monuments using some ties they had made in connection with a topo. They fought me tooth and nail and the board got involved. The primary question for me was liability. After more fighting with them, I filed a series of Public Act requests based on some rumors that the city had some idea of what was going on. It took several requests before they produced a spread sheet identifying thousands of survey monuments they knew were missing and had been destroyed or paved over. Because no one knows of these secret records, they are resetting monuments. When someone like me goes through there, I do my best. Often times because this information is not shared, problems are created. So once again, what are "private records?" The city can demand you turn over your private records while they refuse to share public records.