Accuracy Statements

[mpallamary]

Indeed!

This is my favorite!

[mpallamary]

And then there's this.

If you read the article, the other surveyor called me out of location by 0.01 feet. His block did not close by 0.05 feet. Was he precise or accurate? He caused my client to spend another $15,000.

[mpallamary]

What is more important? To know how to add and subtract or how to be honest and ethical? Which of the two is a bigger problem for the profession?

https://pdhonline.com/courses/r126/r126content.pdf

[Ian Wilson]

For those who do not understand the problem with the photo, I would highly recommend the Mentoring Mondays program from last night and next Monday. https://mentoringmondays.xyz/

November 29 - Jerry Mahun, PLS presenting Part 1 of 2 - Measurement Errors: Behaviors and Analysis
December 6th - Jerry Mahun, PLS presenting Part 2 of 2 - Measurement Errors: Behaviors and Analysis

Jerry's brilliant coverage of the topic should be mandatory for anyone stepping near a measuring device.

And, keep in mind:
December 13th - Jeff Lucas, PLS presenting on The Pincushion Effect - The Multiple Monument Dilemma in American Land Surveying

Kudos to Trent Keenan for this excellent site and service.

[mpallamary]

Yes!

[LS_8750]

In Nevada, a RCE cannot do his/her own topo survey. The surveyors are well fed.

The NSPS/ALTA standards specify accuracy tolerances. Picking a point form an aerial photogrammetry generated point cloud is not meeting that NSPS/ALTA accuracy. Everybody who works with this stuff knows that. The ALTA plats are signed anyway.

What about some sort of methodology statement that would lead the end user to understand the degree of accuracy?

[mpallamary]

Instead of reinventing the wheel, I am sure there is a lot of information out there from other states. Those that advocate this program should first research the topic.

[mpallamary]

https://pdhstar.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... -FINAL.pdf

[mpallamary]

https://www.gpsworld.com/accuracy-preci ... surveying/

[mpallamary]

https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/1999/0171/report.pdf

[mpallamary]

https://www.dnr.wa.gov/publications/eng ... debook.pdf

[mpallamary]

https://consultations.intstandards.org/ ... d=&voteid=

[mpallamary]

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.osls.org/reso ... ctive_.pdf

[mpallamary]

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.osls.org/reso ... ctive_.pdf

[mpallamary]

https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/code/a ... /a_e/7.pdf

[LS_8750]

I get all that. I'm the last person to care to play linguistic ping pong re accuracy and accuracy statements.
Measurement is dead, and land surveyors are like those old title officers out of work, retired, or otherwise hanging out on park benches feeding pigeons.
I get all of it.

I also get maps sent to me with contour lines crossing drainage channels, with retaining walls showing no change in grade from top to bottom, with property lines 10 to 15 feet off, with property lines not even close to record dimensions, with no stamps, no indication of how the data was developed, organized and produced.

Maybe some of those folks down in the OC don't exactly want to hang out and feed pigeons yet. I'm all ears.

[mpallamary]

Dude, I love you!

[DWoolley]

“The horse is here to stay. Good strong, serviceable horses will be in demand at fair prices, despite all competition of bikes and trolley cars.” 1896 “The Wisconsin Farmer”.

I am planning on surveying, in one form or another, for another fifteen years. On the current trajectory, I would not bet on land surveying being recognized as a profession and the existing footprint being sustained for another fifteen years, no way. Readers, riddle yourself this, what will you be doing as a land surveyor in 2030? 2040?

Arguably, the commoditized work i.e. construction and topographic related activity will no longer be a part of the practice.

A good portion of my early career was construction work. I was especially skilled at setting slope stakes. I spent, literally, years staking miles of slope stakes resulting in the moving of millions of yards of material – over 40 million yards on a single project. I have not set a slope stake in over 15 years. It is unlikely I will ever set another slope stake. If I placed all of my stock in slope staking I would be out of business circa 2005. The same is true or will be true for the vast majority of construction and topographic related work.

I have served as an expert for several cases in which a contractor has staked structures incorrectly – costing the contractor a lot of money in legal fees and rework. For the most part, these lawsuits have not dissuaded their self-performing practice.

Generally, construction folks on our side of the fence are not well suited for the professional work – however, this does not mean they won’t do it. Their perspective is usually a “how hard can it be?’. Additionally, these folks are steeped in a low bid mentality. As the market narrows – the current artificial economy notwithstanding - it is clearly narrowing, the construction folks will roll over into the professional work and bottom out the professional market. This market squeeze is in addition to the threat of professional deregulation.

The prices charged for services will necessarily bottom out – leaving folks to work for dissipating wages. Look around, it is already happening. For example, how many folks that had small, previously successful, firms have taken jobs in public agencies in recent years? How many large firms are growing their survey department? Few, most are downsizing (count the heads compared to 2008, 1995). What happens when a one person crew member quits or retires?

I do not place much stock in the opinion of those folks that do not have skin in the long game i.e. folks that do not depend on another 10-20 years of sustainable paychecks. The reminiscent memories of decades old days in the field and the thought “the profession has been good to me” is anchored in a nostalgia of a time that no longer exists.

Those in the land surveying community that can pivot and use their existing skills – coupled with statutory regulation – can make themselves useful in existing markets and more importantly, become market makers. The underground utility detection, precise geographic location and subsequent GIS shape files will happen. The question is whether or not the land surveying community will be participants.

I like the idea of introducing new blood into our profession, but as it stands today, I would not sell anyone close to me, under 30 years old, to start working in the profession. It is no different than convincing my son to forego college to join the UAW in 1975 Detroit. The previous UAW generation had a model middle class living that allowed for a new car every five years, annual vacations, a boat, a stay-at-home parent etc. By 1995 most of the sons and daughters that followed their parents into the industry had lost everything and it remains so today. Michigan, Ohio, the entire rust belt, was decimated and will remain so for the foreseeable future - they built an unsustainable model that was built for the day, not the future. It is almost cruel to lead someone onto this land surveying path and not intensely focus on the professional sustainability.

Please, anyone, tell me what you think the land surveyors will be offering that will provide job security and a sustainable growth as a recognized profession. I am all ears. I will gladly roll up my sleeves and work that direction – as it stands today, we are arguing horses are here to stay.

I have my grain of salt for opinions from those that do not need another 15 years of land surveying work.

DWoolley

[Jim Frame]

You didn't ask for opinions from us short-timers, so here's some data instead, for whatever it's worth: my 2021 job-counts-to-date:

Urban topo: 13
Residential boundary: 7
Rural boundary: 6
Commercial boundary: 2
Geodetic control: 2
Construction staking: 2
Rural topo: 1
Agency map review: 1
Elevation Certificate: 1
ALTA: 1

The construction staking jobs were tiny, done only as favors for good clients. (I normally don't do any of that, and haven't since the Great Recession, when I took on a 2-lot urban development because I didn't have much else going on.) A few of the boundaries are litigation support projects, so much of the work on those is in things like title research, report compilation, depositions and court testimony.

Oh, heck, here's an opinion anyway: I don't think urban topo work is going away anytime soon. In intensely-developed areas -- especially those with flat grades and a lot of vegetative cover -- I don't see any way around putting boots on the ground to get reliable design-level topography. Drones? Please, by the time you set and position all the ground control you need for reliable elevations you could have shot the whole thing with a total station, and the drone would miss everything under the tree canopy anyway. And drones can't dip manholes. Scanners? I'm told they work great, though the capital investment is huge, and you need a skilled operator in the office to weed out the extraneous data in order to produce a useful end product; I hear the man-hours are a wash. Plus a scanner won't dig for monuments or open manholes.

[hellsangle]

Well said, Jim and Dave . . .

But what long-range-affect would an "accuracy statement" or "three signs" legislation do?

Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder

[DWoolley]

Jim:

I am always interested in your opinion.

You are not the demographic that warrants my concern. You have a developed curriculum vitae that accommodates expert work (which most surveyors do not have), and a particular client base that I suspect will carry you into boot hill. Last time we spoke, I do not recall you having a successor for which you might be concerned. Based on your age, experience, clients and geographical location I do not think you have to be concerned about sustainability. Think about the control network you have established and maintained for one of your clients, do you think the everyman surveyor would have the forethought to develop and maintain that network? Or, in the alternative, do you think a firm will roll in and perform entire boundaries and control, including a freeway right of way, and perform an ALTA-esk survey based on two monuments for pennies on the dollar?

My point is the 40-something or younger crowd, most particularly those unlicensed, face - from my perspective - almost certain ruin if we do not seek to expand the traditional markets.

We have software now that will create surfaces from Google Earth. I have checked these surfaces to be close enough for fool many engineers into using them for design. This is especially appealing in that the surfaces are free. These same engineers now send their CAD files to the contractors. The contractors use the CAD files much the same way the surveyors use them for staking.

I dig up quite a few monuments - many more than my two monument tango peers - and I dip a few manholes. That said, few surveyors dig or dip enough to make up a months worth of paychecks in a year. We have underground utility folks in our area that dip manholes with no licensees under their roof. Technically, I am not sure dipping a manhole requires a license.

Measurement is no longer the land surveyors exclusive domain. In fact, everyone can measure now. However, qualified and quantified measurement analysis legislatively remains in the land surveyor's wheelhouse. Why wouldn't the community want to use that knowledge to create or expand the market place?

DWoolley

[DWoolley]

Phil:

We should separate the requirement for identification signs from accuracy statements. They are two separate ideas. It is possible to support one idea and oppose another. The shiny object crowd needs not to be confused by connecting those two ideas. Who needs accurate signs on their survey vehicles, harrumph?! (I didn't get a harrumph outta that guy...Give the Guv'nor a harrumph).

The requirement for signs on survey vehicles, akin to the current law requiring contractors to have the name and license numbers on their vehicles, is to proactively try to protect our right of entry to land without permission or fear of being charged with trespass. This stems from a proposed law that made it through both houses circa 2015 that required permission to enter property. The proposed law came from the Central Valley in an effort to hinder the High Speed Rail. Governor Brown, a High Speed Rail advocate, vetoed the bill or it would be law today. The idea is to place the survey community in a position to create an exclusion for land surveyors - I do not want to place the fate of right of entry on a prayer Governor Newsom would veto the bill. It would be ideal to argue a land owner always knows who is on their property if it is a land surveyor.

In my experience, a land surveyor is just as likely to accost a homeowner as to professionally produce a business card and explain politely the business at hand. I have firsthand experience on this matter. If I encounter a field surveyor in my area, providing it is safe, I approach them in my street clothes. I simply walk up and ask them what they are doing and if they do not know me, oh, the stories I could tell you. Additionally, this sign requirement would put additional pressure on unlicensed practitioners i.e. whose license are they going to put on the door?

The accuracy statement is intended to sharpen and expand the skills of our brethren - unfortunately, we have far to many coordinate jockeys - and more importantly, differentiate what a land surveyor does from the skills of a layout contractor, a GIS professional, a UAV operator, and any other number of folks performing work that was traditionally land surveying. California is unlike most other states in that we have no written technical standards adopted. I believe now is a good time to change that.

Again, the topics of sustainability, market making, professional preservation will only appear to be burdens to those with little skin in the game.

DWoolley

[mpallamary]

When I worked in the back country, I had a set of magnetic signs stating the name of my company with the words LAND SURVEYOR and my phone number on it, both prominently displayed. I put them on as I wanted everyone to know what I was doing and why I was out there. When I was in the city, particularly in rough neighborhoods, I removed the signs because I did not want to draw attention to the valuables inside. There were some neighborhoods where, if I had signs on my truck, the probability was much higher that something would be stolen.

Signs are another tool for surveyors.

In any event, good dialogue all.

[LS_8750]

Cut 6731.1 and 6731.2 from the PE Act?
Does anybody know an engineer anymore who can survey their way of of a paper bag?

[Edward M Reading]

Dave,
I'm curious as to how you think that an accuracy statement is going to "sharpen and expand the skills of our brethren".
Ed