Civil Engineers marketing Land Survey work?

[CBarrett]

I wish this was not allowed.

Yes, lot of our work comes from civil engineers, but this has also set up a condition where surveyors are put in a second place disadvantageous position when it comes to business and marketing and leadership in general.

Lot of times, you are not able to market or be a project manager for projects that you end up being responsible for. In some firms this also means limited advancement and bonuses, because PE's will not let go of a percentage they can get their hands on.

A recent development I saw in one of the companies I follow on LinkedIn, A PE becoming a regional director for UAS and Lidar and indoor lidar scanning. This does cross several states, so I don't know the nuances of each state, but... why a PE? Because they are in a better position to market, and were able to get farther would be one of the factors...

Over the years I have expressed interest in being apart of BIA (building industry association) and a number of responses you get is, 'You are a surveyor, we already have Civil Engineers there'. For a while, earlier in my career I was working towards getting a dual license, maybe that's still an option. Sometimes a lifetime doesn't seem long enough to cover everything.

[LS_8750]

Sidestepping 8726(6) is routine for them.

[CBarrett]

Actually it is this section in the PE act that bothers me - they are allowed to procure and manage Land Surveying work. In my experience, this leads to a lot of problems on a project, because they sell and manage it to such level that you are often being pushed into being asked to bend the rules on the PLS act, because "we didn't budget for this" and we didn't plan on that, and then of course you get the gems like 'the surveyors at my old company did it'. I hear stories of in house engineers threatening their staff surveyors that 'we'll just take the project to a different surveyors (as subconsultant) which will do ..... (fill in the blanks).

Also, they use surveying as a loss leader too often in how they plan their projects.

All this in too many cases leads towards substandard practices.

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[khuerth]

they are allowed to procure and manage Land Surveying work.

don't rush past this portion of 6731.2 "work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice"

Is a Tract Map incidental to improvement plans?

Is topographic mapping incidental to a sewer design?

Is an ALTA survey incidental to any engineering work?

[LS_8750]

As an engineer I would say yes.
Or I could invent an excuse to say yes.

[CBarrett]

they are allowed to procure and manage Land Surveying work.

don't rush past this portion of 6731.2 "work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice"

Is a Tract Map incidental to improvement plans?

Is topographic mapping incidental to a sewer design?

Is an ALTA survey incidental to any engineering work?

I don't care if it is incidental or not, I won't want engineers to procure and manage any of those, because it creates a lot of problems. Right now, they do it, with a very poor understanding of it.

[CBarrett]

As an engineer I would say yes.
Or I could invent an excuse to say yes.

I would venture a guess that 70% of civil engineers believe strongly it is all incidental to their work.

[LS_8750]

I empathize with you Ms. Barrett. And I have seen it in my own practice.

[CBarrett]

I empathize with you Ms. Barrett. And I have seen it in my own practice.

It frequently puts us against the against the PLS at rules.

We need to get better at understanding our interests and being more assertive with protecting them.

Lot of surveyors grumble about engineers, but I don't see much being done about it. It's mostly, put your head down and take it, it's normal.
I keep hearing how this is a dying profession. it is because WE ARE CMOMPLICIT IN OUR OWN DEMISE.

Look around the world, Surveying is not a dying profession.
WE ARE THE ONES KILLING IT.

[mpallamary]

Our own worst enemy.

[CBarrett]

So, how do we change that, at least start to make changes?

[mpallamary]

I have been working on this for 50 years by lecturing and writing articles and trying to educate people. APATHY is destroying the profession.

[mpallamary]

Usually when I write an article like this, someone files a complaint with the board.

[mpallamary]

Each time I present this topic, the faces of the audience go blank.

[mpallamary]

There are so many missed opportunities!

[mpallamary]

I ran the national surveyor's week program for CLSA years ago. I had extensive media coverage and I worked with Curt Brown on a lecture that attracted more than 200 people including news media.

I put together a multimedia presentation that ran for a week at the County operations building.

What did each chapter of CLSA do to recognize National Surveyor's week?

Was/is there a coordinated effort?

https://www.nsps.us.com/page/NSW

https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.nsps.us.com/r ... t_2021.pdf

As I said, I have been working on this for many years?

[mpallamary]

More

[mpallamary]

When is the last time CLSA organized a day in Sacramento where local surveyors visited their legislators and introduced themselves and explained what they do. There is a wonderful opportunity for CLSA members to take a leading role in SB-9 implementation.

Why are we silent and hiding in closets with no voice?

If we do not speak up for ourselves, who will?

[CBarrett]

I have been working on this for 50 years by lecturing and writing articles and trying to educate people. APATHY is destroying the profession.

Apathy and, dare I say, limited thinking.

Sometimes, the surveying community is infuriatingly closed minded. More than sometimes.
Not too long ago, I had a brief interaction with out immediate past president of CLSA (state), where he got upset that I was talking about some of the changes which may benefit us. He was upset that I was talking about it outside of CLSA, in A Facebook group (discussion organically developed from a conversation), and proceeded to chide me over there, about how I shouldn't be talking about CLSA outside of CLSA, especially in a negative light. That If I wanted to make some constructive input, I should bring it up within CLSA. Well, there's a lot of feedback I am offering here, and the gentleman is not present. I didn't have him specifically in mind when I was talking about CLSA leadership over last 30 years, but he took it personally, and not in a constructive manner (in spite of saying he would - ha).
I am not (yet) an officer of CLSA who is privy to any proprietary information which needs to be protected, to have a non disclosure obligation.

Anyone in any leadership has failures. It is nothing to get in a huff over. Leadership means constantly looking at things that are not working, not giving us positive results and figuring out how to adjust course. Sometimes things 'leaders' do as they stir the ship don't have measurable consequences until years later. No-one is immune to this. Part of the trouble is, we have so many people who don't understand this, and dig their heels in taking it as some huge offense. This is in part why I am pushing the idea of emotional maturity and emotional intelligence. It is one of the things lot of people are lacking.

People who are pushing for, for example a 4 year degree in part have the right idea, going through a 4 year college curriculum usually does expose a person to the basics of psychology and sociology, which then help them function better when they need to interact with groups, to look at their own track record. Some people are extremely lucky that they may have been raised by a family which has a good handle on these. Most people did not, it is not a common thing in our society yet, and have to learn it somewhere along the way.

Yes, I can see how similar happens when you write an article, the minute I saw "you may not be an expert' people get in a huff "I work hard for my license". well, great, we all did, and do including those who are at various levels in their growth. Getting the license is not the pinnacle of surveying. It is the minimum required for independent practice. We should think of it more as the 50% point. Sure, we may be experts in the eyes of the court, because we know more about surveying than the population at large. Next step is to start working on becoming an expert among experts. This is all a scale, we are not moving from point of zero, to licensed to gone in three moves. It is a progression with a minion or more steps. Yet another thing some people learn in colleges, (4 year or JC's), to grow beyond black and white thinking. Same knowledge can be gained without college too, there is probably a good metric ton of books written on the subject. It can be gained via mentoring too, if anyone sees it fit.

On and off I am tinkering with the idea of what it takes to be a professional, what skills... And it occurred to me that beyond technical literature, there is no comprehensive guide, or even a bullet pointed guide of what skills are needed to be a professional. ESPECIALLY skills outside of immediate technical prowess. Maybe we can make one.

Ok, I have things I need to get accomplished today so I have to run. Consider the above more food for thought. I tend to think out loud.

We need to get more people inside this forum too.

[CBarrett]

When is the last time CLSA organized a day in Sacramento where local surveyors visited their legislators and introduced themselves and explained what they do. There is a wonderful opportunity for CLSA members to take a leading role in SB-9 implementation.

Why are we silent and hiding in closets with no voice?

If we do not speak up for ourselves, who will?

Ooo, I like that idea!

[mpallamary]

I did it years ago. The way it is done, is a representative from each chapter/county meets with their representative. The Central Office assists in setting the meetings up. Everyone has a script to follow and hand an educational article to the legislator. it is better if two people go as the legislator likes that. Having a partner like that is a plus.

It is also helpful to visit important committee members.

https://abp.assembly.ca.gov/membersstaff

All it takes is initiative.

It is that easy.

[LS_8750]

At the end of the day, I think the PE Act should be revised to exclude engineers from the so called "incidental" work.
As a dual PE and PLS, I see clearly in my routine practice that CEs overwhelmingly have no idea what is involved in the practice of land surveying.

Feel free to convince me otherwise, with examples.

[CBarrett]

At the end of the day, I think the PE Act should be revised to exclude engineers from the so called "incidental" work.
As a dual PE and PLS, I see clearly in my routine practice that CEs overwhelmingly have no idea what is involved in the practice of land surveying.

Feel free to convince me otherwise, with examples.

At least narrowed down in some fashion to start cut down on problematic practices.
Quite possibly even an attempt to do something may heighten the awareness.
On the other hand, maybe us surveyors need to start turning up at more engineering conferences and gatherings, and offer some education on the matter.
I wonder how many engineers would pay for a seminar on how to have fewer conflicts with surveyors (and vice versa).

[LS_8750]

Engineers don't talk surveying at engineer conferences.
There is a real problem with engineers doing drone topo work and believing in technical brochure accuracy terminology without any idea of what they are really doing. Monkey and the engineer. Atari with no gamesmanship. Seeing it turn up in monitoring work, believing the machine when you they can't state anything relative to redundancy checks and routine house keeping or quality control procedures. And I know some of you County Surveyors have dealt with this stuff on the public improvement side as well.
What is a site plan? What does the CBC say? What does the LS Act say?

[mpallamary]

This is from NSPS. With COVID ostensibly over, we can meet in person.

https://nsmith965.wixsite.com/nsps

As I have asked many, many times over the last 30 years, why cannot CLSA do this?

https://nsmith965.wixsite.com/nsps/training