Plastic Plug Plight

[CBarrett]

Over 50 monuments on this boundary analysis, an area where plastic plugs are popular. Only abut 15 still have legible tags still on them. abut 5 still have PP's on but are illegible. Remaining conditions - lot of 'open' I.P's.

I know some people say PP's are durable monuments, however, this is the result of monumentation from about 1980's through today in southern California, open land, dirt roads.

Found ....., no tag, no reference, fits record per .... (within reason), accepted as ..... tagged...

old IP's, even those on Rock mounds with metal tags, LS 3000 series, and RCE 9000 series, still there.

County can not ask for more durable monuments because PLS act does not define what a durable monument is, so local surveyors argue with the county to allow plastic plugs.

In light of this I am developing a plastic plug allergy.

[mpallamary]

A plastic plug is not a durable monument. Pieces of plastic are toys for young children to play with, sort of like legos.

https://www.amazon.com/lego

[Steve Martin]

Plastic plugs do not survive wild fires or even just a few years in the sun - not durable!

[LS9200]

I once found a surveyor that used form stakes (steel) with 10 gauge copper wire running through the holes securing a washer tagged with their license number and year set. I always though this was a great monument that is currently less expensive than an iron pipe and with plastic cap, if cost per metal in the ground is of concern.

[CBarrett]

I once found a surveyor that used form stakes (steel) with 10 gauge copper wire running through the holes securing a washer tagged with their license number and year set. I always though this was a great monument that is currently less expensive than an iron pipe and with plastic cap, if cost per metal in the ground is of concern.

Well, pounding a pipe in the ground and tapping a PP on top is less labor intensive that mixing quickcrete and then reshooting for nail and tags. It's tough to do $800 boundary survey and have to set 6 concrete filled IP's AND file an RS, it blows a budget. (yes, I am being a bit sardonic here too).

The result on this project is, I have a zig zaggy dept. of transportation right of way, full of no ref. monuments. I will hold them because I still think those are original monuments (even if I have no solid proof). Thankfully, Caltrans no longer uses them, I think.

On the other hand, when I check maps, I also see this as a frequent reason someone calls a monument off by 0.25', and sets yet another pipe with a plastic plug. Fast forward a third guy will come along and find two No. Ref. pipes once the other PP pops off.

On the other hand, if you are in an area with low land values, to a property owner $800 vs. $2000 means I can get it surveyed vs. I can not. What do you do. Which one serves or underserves the public more? Unsurveyed property, or surveyed with substandard monumentation. I don't know.

[LS9200]

I think you might have misinterpreted what I had stated. Just use the form stake, don't form anything. They have pre-drilled holes for threading the copper wire through, then just tie on a tagged washer. Done $6 permanent, durable marker, copper is a noble metal and will not erode away.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Mutual-Indu ... /304129363

[CBarrett]

Sorry, yes, I understood what you meant.
I was expounding on the cost part of the entire situation, and I neglected to acknowledge the rest of what you said.

I gather what you are suggesting would be similar to the monumentation used in several other states (with Rebars and T bars etc). I have only seen them peripherally from frequenting another online group of surveyors, and don't know how durable they are.

[PLS7393]

One must first look at the conditions of the project, such as urban vs. rural area to determine what is the best material to use.
Personally I do not have any issues to set rebar and plastic caps in an urban setting. For the same reason I typically do not set rebar or pipes (for that matter) at the front property corners, rather an offset on the side line extended and set a nail & tag in the concrete sidewalk. That too isn't permanent, but it is more permanent than a tagged pipe or rebar.

As for using bailing wire to attach a tag to the rebar, rust will deteriorate and when your crew digs and nicks the wire, well the tag will fall and that too is now lost.

I have found the shelf life for a plastic cap on rebar to be approximately 35-40 years in direct sunlight around the Bay Area. Again, the dessert has different conditions so plan accordingly.

I am more disappointed in the quality of a Bernstein plastic cap, as they only embose micro millimetre deep. I purchased 3,000 and upon receipt noticed this, contacted customer service and originally they were going to rectify the problem and send new ones. Nothing happened, and upon additional communications with Bernstein, was told they were not going to resend. I do not expect this batch to be readable in the field for a long period of time. Am I responsible for the BAD quality by others? Trust me, I will NEVER buy anything else from Bernstein as there are better companies out there, like Surv Kap, or Lo Ink.

[CBarrett]

Down south, in most jurisdictions plastic caps and plugs ae not considered durable monuments. There too many instances of them popping off or deteriorating in on way or another.
For tract and parcel maps, where they can be banned, they have been (via subdivision monumentation ordinances), for Records of survey, surveyors in several jurisdictions keep fighting back. They claim that those monuments are durable, but often it is their very monument that has 'popped off', or they are turning in an RS where they found several open (unreferenced) IP's in places where record calls for plastic plugs only 5 years ago, while at the same time claiming those are durable monuments. I would say easy 30% of monumentation with plastic caps and plugs loses them. Even if it was 15%, that's too high of a number.

Boundary I am working on right now, half rural, half urban paved areas, 70% of monuments or more have plugs that popped off.
I have an area of 1- foot overlap with the neighbor, and monuments with no reference. Who set what at what time to try and resolve the cloud on title - who knows. Monuments few feet apart with no tags. When we're done with figuring out the boundary, there will be a new monument there documenting a boundary line agreement (probably).

I talked to my party chief on this latest project, and he said several plastic caps crumbled and caved in the moment he set a rod on them to take the shot. Maybe the ground level heat in the south, where summer temperatures get to 110F or 115F overbake the plastic.

[dharri]

During the early 1980’s, I performed a survey in a very rural area. I set #5 rebars with plastic caps. Three months later, my client requested that I flag his property line. When I returned to the site, I discovered that rats had eaten the plastic caps off of my rebars. After that, I set aluminum caps on my rebars. Brush fires may melt the aluminum caps, but rats will not eat them and the sun will not melt them. There is no such thing as an indestructible monument (can you say bulldozer?), but I think that we, as land surveyors, should make our monuments as permanent as possible.

[LS_8750]

There is a mysterious force in the universe that draws chainmen's shovelheads to plastic plugs and caps. I don't think there is a surveyor in the universe who has ever not busted a plastic cap or plug with a shovel.

Oh, and they melt in wildfires.

[CBarrett]

There is a mysterious force in the universe that draws chainmen's shovelheads to plastic plugs and caps. I don't think there is a surveyor in the universe who has ever not busted a plastic cap or plug with a shovel.

Oh, and they melt in wildfires.

Oh, very good point, I didn't even think about the shovel impact.

[PLS7393]

There is a mysterious force in the universe that draws chainmen's shovelheads to plastic plugs and caps. I don't think there is a surveyor in the universe who has ever not busted a plastic cap or plug with a shovel.

Oh, and they melt in wildfires.

Oh, very good point, I didn't even think about the shovel impact.

That's why we do our best in each circumstance for our clients needs. Don't forget the bobcat operator or D-10 operator who always protects iron pipes (with or without) your metal tags!!! Permanent points only sound good on paper, lol.

[CBarrett]

Construction operations are a given to knock a few monuments out, this is why we have monument preservation programs, and at least in the area where I practice more and more cities are insisting on monumentation inspection before signing off on improvements. Hopefully this will gain more and more traction.

It is also written in the PLS act that we are not to set a monument in places where we know it will get disturbed (or destroyed), I used that clause a number of times, mostly successfully, to argue against setting monuments prior to construction completion, or as a contract condition with a client, where knocking out monumentation will trigger an extra charge to reset them, of course.

Dozers and other equipment moving several cubic yards of dirt at once are a different story, and not really a good argument for perpetuating the use of plastic plugs.

I discovered another use for hard plastic in open land - rodents like to chew on it to file their teeth down. Couple surveyors learned it the hard way.

If permanent points sound good only on paper, then we certainly need to up our game in what we consider a durable monument, rather than blowing them off.

[Jim Frame]

This thread is an "angels on the head of a pin" exercise. The PLSA doesn't define "durable," and until it does -- or until it specifically declares plastic plugs as "not durable" -- the decision is left to the individual practitioner.

Don't like plastic plugs? Don't use 'em. There's not much more to discuss.

[CBarrett]

This thread is an "angels on the head of a pin" exercise. The PLSA doesn't define "durable," and until it does -- or until it specifically declares plastic plugs as "not durable" -- the decision is left to the individual practitioner.

Don't like plastic plugs? Don't use 'em. There's not much more to discuss.

PLSA act is not likely to change their definitions if people insist on suppressing the discussions.
Also, surveyors don't operate in vacuum where their work doesn't affect anyone else, so while the decision is left to individual practitioner right now, it could be seen as unethical to turn a blind eye to practices which may undermine results of our work.

Legal code is only minimum of requirements. In civil spheres, it is the last bit of difference between someone being a criminal or not. There are many levels of quality of care above the minimum requirements, beyond, I don't want to do this unless the law makes me.
It's a little bit like saying, well, I don't steal because I am afraid of getting caught.

[Jim Frame]

"Plastic plugs aren't durable."
"Yes they are."
"No they're not."
"Yes they are."
"No they're not."
[Repeat as infinitum]

That's the gist of this discussion as I've witnessed it over the last 40 years. If you'd like to continue it, please feel free. No one is suppressing it.

[LS_8750]

I remember about 12 years ago running into an old Keith Harlan pipe a couple tenths deep in a gravel turnout along an old country road in Watsonville area. His tag was on it and that struck me with amazement given the pipes location and the number of times it had been driven over, etc.
He tagged the pipe with a brass phillips head screw embedded in a concrete plug inside the pipe.
I've been tagging my pipes that same way ever since.

[CBarrett]

I remember about 12 years ago running into an old Keith Harlan pipe a couple tenths deep in a gravel turnout along an old country road in Watsonville area. His tag was on it and that struck me with amazement given the pipes location and the number of times it had been driven over, etc.
He tagged the pipe with a brass phillips head screw embedded in a concrete plug inside the pipe.
I've been tagging my pipes that same way ever since.

We do concrete filled pipes down here mostly (Orange County) for pipes in dirt, with a brass tag and a long nail, sometimes you see a screw. They seem to do rather well, especially compared to PP's.