URGENT CALL TO ARMS

[mpallamary]

Surveying is more of a science than a design problem. In the determination of a position on the face of the earth or in space, the surveyor uses laws of science and measuring devices to record things as they are; he does not design the position. In preparing maps the cartographer reproduces to a miniature scale the surface of the earth as it exists; he does not design the earth. To be sure, there is some design in surveying and mapping but not nearly to the extent found in designing structures. In general, surveying and mapping has been and probably will be treated as a supporting engineering science that an engineer must acquire to accomplish other more important design ends. From the viewpoint of the civil engineer, this is probably correct; from the viewpoint of the surveyor, it is unacceptable.

- Curtis M. Brown
Professional Land Surveyor
San Diego, California

[mpallamary]

THE SURVEYOR’S PROFESSIONAL STATUS

Principle: Professional stature cannot be acquired by self proclamation; others must bestow the title upon the surveyor.

The three professions or learned professions as defined by Webster, are theology, law, and medicine. Definitions of a profession, though not exact, include such phrases as “a group of men,” following a “learned art,” and as a “public service.”
We, as surveyors, know that we are in a profession practiced by a group of highly skilled men pursuing a learned art for the benefit of the public. But we, as professional men, are not the sole judge in this matter; others must also think so. Whether surveying is a profession or not is something that the public bestows upon the surveyor. Fortunately, it is not something that is acquired by self proclamation. If it were otherwise, everyone would soon lay claim and become higher in stature whether qualified or not. The professions that the public recognizes and acclaims as professions, i.e., doctors, attorneys, and clergymen, need not use the title professional doctor, professional attorney, or professional clergyman; everyone knows they are professional. The title was bestowed upon them because of their ethics, behavior, and standing in the community. Friends, business acquaintances, and others will evaluate surveyors by their behavior, technical skills, education, and ethics. Only if they behave and act like professional men will the public bestow upon them the privilege of being professionals.
Surveyors enjoy a personal relationship to the client that is similar to that of the legal and medical professions. The client seeks the services of a surveyor for a personal problem, the surveyor serves the client for a fee and at the same time is obligated to protect certain bona fide rights of others. But, unlike the legal, medical, and theological professions, he is not extended privilege communications. As in law and medicine, the surveyor is often given the exclusive right to perform certain duties, and in exchange for this exclusive right he has obligations to the client, the public, and other surveyors. The differences between the surveying profession and a business are:

(1) A relation with the public as an arbitrator of boundary problems and an obligation to protect the boundary rights of others.

(2) A duty of public service though it may incidentally be a means of earning a fee.

(3) The possibility of earning highest eminence without making much money.

(4) A relation to clients in trust.

(5) A relation to other surveyors characterized by fairness.

(6) An unwillingness to use business methods of advertising in self-laudatory language.

(7) Unwillingness to encroach on another surveyor’s practice or clients.

- Curtis M. Brown
Professional Land Surveyor
San Diego, California

[mpallamary]

THE PROFESSIONAL STATUS
OF LAND SURVEYORS

By Curtis M. Brown *

March 1961

AT THE present time, the professional status of the land surveyor is the subject of national discussion. Within the next few years the surveyor will be in one of two positions. First, he can have subprofessional standing with low educational requirements and minor areas of practice, or, second, he can bring himself up to the standards of the better professions and assert himself in a larger area of practice. The surveyor cannot afford to stand still. The engineers, land planners, and the like are advancing their stature at a rapid pace, and if they pass the surveyor too far they will supplant him.

[mpallamary]

What is the present professional status of a particular surveyor or all land surveyors can only be answered by examining what others think of us. And what others think of us varies considerably depending upon which group or individual you ask. The opinion of the courts is distinctly at contrast with the educators. The layman’s opinion is different from that of a non-surveyor engineer.
Courts, in response to liability litigation, have taken a positive stand on the status of all land surveyors. In the eyes of the law the land surveyor is treated with professional respect; he has all the liability accorded a professional man. While from the viewpoint of the pocketbook this privilege of liability does have disadvantages, it is proof, in a backhanded way, that the land surveyor is above the technician level.
The word privilege of liability was used advisedly. Human nature, being what it is, always offers a temptation to meet competition by doing a poorer job for less money. But professional liability is independent of the fee. A person agreeing to do a poorer job for less money carries identical liability to that of a person doing a better job for more money. This is as it ought to be.
Since we, as surveyors, are liable, one of the greatest deterrents to substandard work is this liability. While liability to the individual may be considered a disadvantage, it is an advantage to a profession as a whole. Without liability, I fear that those willing to do poorer work for less money would soon ruin the professional standing of all land surveyors. And so I say, professional liability is a privilege tending to prove the land surveyor’s professional standing.
The courts say that we as a group are professional men; but this is not prima facie proof that everyone thinks that each of us is, nor is it proof that we are looked upon with equal standing to the learned professions. If we are to enjoy the standing and dignity afforded professional men, others must know and act as if they believe we are professional men. What do educators think?

- Curtis M. Brown

[mpallamary]

I spent many years discussing these topics with Curt Brown. He would undoubtedly embrace this topic with great passion.

[CBarrett]

Thanks. I needed to hear that thismorning.

"In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers, we are not simply protecting their trivial old age, we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations." -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Or in more practical and psychological terms, when people keep silent, the bullies see it as a sign of permission.
Silence gives those up to no good a cushy road for their deeds.

What people need to stop doing is falling prey to the phenomenon called diffusion of responsibility. When there is a group of 200 or so people, and they se something happening that isn't right, it is easy for everyone to say. Not my circus, not my monkeys, or maybe I am just a little guy in this circus, and everyone shrinks a bit from their responsibility.

Result is no-one does a thing, corollary to that is that Silence gives those up to no good a cushy road for their deeds.

Little more coherent description of this phenomenon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion ... onsibility

This is also where ethics of holding each other responsible for responsible behaviors needs to kick in.

If we had continued education requirement and asked for our fellow surveyors to take a single social sciences class (like basic psychology or sociology) this would be easily evident. These are basic general education concepts that escape our fellow 'professionals'. Lack of these educational basics is hurting us.

[CBarrett]

This got buried, so I am reposting.

Orange County chapter is going to be discussing this at our next board meeting this coming Tuesday and would welcome input from the professional community.
I also understand that our NSPS Liaison has the document in hand and will be having a discussion with the NSPS (had a brief email exchange about it this morning).

Our chapter board meetings are public, and I would invite all interested parties to attend this coming Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 5PM Pacific.
Orange County CLSA is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.

Join Zoom Meeting:
https://zoom.us/j/97422273832?pwd=STRDb ... 9GMS9aQT09

OC CLSA board meeting zoom link can also found on our website.
----------------------
Connie Barrett
OC-CLSA Secretary

[mpallamary]

Thanks!

I was interviewed for an article coming out in the American Surveyor magazine.

[mpallamary]

See attached.

[mpallamary]

The American Congress on Surveying and Mapping (ACSM) is the National Society that represents the surveyors of the United States. If surveyors of the United States of America are to attain uniformity of practice and professional standing of equal merit, a major part of the accomplishment will be done through the efforts and effectiveness of the American Congress on Surveying and Mapping.

PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE
National Report to F.I.G. Commission I Eleventh International Congress of Surveyors
Rome, Italy
May 25 - June 5, 1965
By Curtis M. Brown

[mpallamary]

I have not yet heard a doctor, attorney, priest, or professor saying I am a professional attorney, doctor, or professor. Everyone knows they are. It is a failing of people that they want the title without the effort, the degree without the education, heaven without probation. People usually get what they earn.

No one acquires standing by self-proclamation. Because of behavior, knowledge, integrity, ethics, skill and service to others, people have acclaimed doctors as belonging to the professions. It is others who bestowed the title upon them. If surveyors behave and act like professional men over a long period of time, then and only then will the public and their peers recognize them as such. It is the total picture of an individual that determines his standing; surveyors cannot be biased towards their own interests.

What is the future of land surveying? It is whatever you make it. You are the ones who are carrying the ball.

SURVEYORS SERVICE TO SOCIETY
By Curtis M. Brown
Licensed Land Surveyor, San Diego California
September 1971

[mpallamary]

One thing is certain, if we are going to acquire a standing or position in society, we must earn it individually by our own efforts. No man can acquire honesty by merely saying, “I am honest.” No man can acquire respect by saying, “I should be respected.” No man can acquire an education by merely saying, “I am educated.” Our individual actions, effort, and behavior are the proof of what we are. The sum total of all our individual actions is proof of what we are as a composite group, and the composite group is no better than the individuals. I hope that each of you, as an individual becomes recognized as a professional man, then all of us as a group will be acclaimed as a profession.


SURVEYORS SERVICE TO SOCIETY
By Curtis M. Brown
Licensed Land Surveyor, San Diego California
September 1971

[CBarrett]

Reading the board newsletter, another place got fined.
There is also a https://www.24hplans.com/where-can-i-ge ... -property/
Who claims:
"Expensive and affordable site plans are identical (surveys are certified) in all other respects but cost."
Have they been turned in yet?

[bryanmundia]

Reading the board newsletter, another place got fined.
There is also a https://www.24hplans.com/where-can-i-ge ... -property/
Who claims:
"Expensive and affordable site plans are identical (surveys are certified) in all other respects but cost."
Have they been turned in yet?

I believe I turned them in about the same time as the other company mentioned in this discussion.

[mpallamary]

Good job! Thank you.