Boundary Line Agreements

[DWoolley]

I could not make that last post up.

I am rather new to the paid version of ChatGPT, it fills me with confirmation bias. Joking aside, I have been seeing some serious compliance issues with the California Public Resource Code - I do not understand. We are not splitting atoms.

There was some faux satisfaction to see Benson mentioned twice in the outline provided by AI. The Benson Bullseye is centered in the Bay Area, the local practice in Humboldt is extraordinarily similar to that in Southern California. To my NorCal, Bay Area specifically, pals, I said "with all due respect" first. The measure of the quality of a person is not relative to their ability to perform land surveying.

Their consanguine jaw notwithstanding, technically the Habsburg family were royalty. ChatGPT was to polite not to point out cultural similarities in the analysis. My Benson Bulleye was a theory with which I had no backup, ChatGPT made me smile today.

DWoolley

[Mike Mueller]

Dave,

Any chance you could ask it the same question with a qualification not to include any input or information from your 10 min videos and CLSA Forums?

I would be curious to see if its just reflecting our debate, or if there is truly some deeper thread. It seems interesting to me that it would include almost all of the points that have been hashed over in our forums.

Follow up would be to ask it "how would you characterize what Dave Wooley thinks of Benson?" " how would you characterize what Mikey Mueller thinks of the Benson Bullseye" and for both of those questions ask it again with the above qualification.

Thanks in advance if you can find the time :)

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[DWoolley]

Dave,

Any chance you could ask it the same question with a qualification not to include any input or information from your 10 min videos and CLSA Forums?

I would be curious to see if its just reflecting our debate, or if there is truly some deeper thread. It seems interesting to me that it would include almost all of the points that have been hashed over in our forums.

Follow up would be to ask it "how would you characterize what Dave Wooley thinks of Benson?" " how would you characterize what Mikey Mueller thinks of the Benson Bullseye" and for both of those questions ask it again with the above qualification.

Thanks in advance if you can find the time :)

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

I think of this as a fun conversation that is little more than a parlor game. I would not take it to seriously. It genuinely made me laugh out loud when I read it yesterday.

Besides the Benson reference (still smiling), some of the basis for the differences in practice came from somewhere and generally, seemed plausible. Southern California was developed after 1920s, County Surveyors more strictly adhere to technical standards in their review, etc.

I will ask ChatGPT and provide the answer.

DWoolley

[Ric7308]

These posts over the last two days are very interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing what comes next if Dave has the time.

[DWoolley]

I asked "Same question, "How do we explain the gap in knowledge and practice between Northern California and Southern California land surveyors?" excluding any information provided by a California Land Surveyors Association (CLSA) forum or Orange County CLSA ten minute surveyor video information. Add any additional information to further clarify or to add to the original question.

Certainly. Here's a revised and expanded version of the analysis, excluding any information sourced from CLSA forums or the Orange County CLSA "Ten Minute Surveyor" video:

Regional Differences in Practice Between Northern and Southern California Surveyors Central Question:

How do we explain the persistent gap in knowledge, professional consistency, and surveying practices between land surveyors in Northern California and those in Southern California—excluding any interpretations or content from CLSA forums or related videos?

1. Geopolitical and Development History Northern California:

Contains many legacy land grants (e.g., Ranchos), 19th-century mining claims, and irregular parceling.

Earlier and more piecemeal land development, often before standardized mapping and regulatory controls were in place.

More timber, agricultural, and mountainous regions, leading to different surveying needs (e.g., forest boundaries, riparian rights).

Southern California:

Experienced rapid post-WWII urban expansion driven by aerospace, defense, and real estate industries.

Growth was accompanied by modern zoning, subdivision acts, and municipal enforcement mechanisms.

Much of the region developed with grid-style subdivisions, infrastructure planning, and systematic recordation.

2. Public Agency Structure and Influence Northern California:

Many rural counties and cities with under-resourced Public Works or Surveyor’s Offices.

Some counties still lack a full-time licensed County Surveyor, limiting peer review or enforcement of monumentation standards.

Southern California:

Counties like Los Angeles, San Diego, and Riverside employ robust Public Works departments with dedicated staff to enforce filing laws, monument preservation, and QA/QC.

Caltrans District Offices in the south frequently require detailed topographic and boundary coordination.

3. University and Industry Pipelines Northern California:

Fewer colleges offering structured surveying or geomatics programs near rural areas.

Smaller firms may rely on apprenticeship-based learning, which can preserve inconsistent local practices.

Southern California:

Proximity to Cal Poly Pomona, CSU Long Beach, and Santiago Canyon College, which offer programs in surveying, GIS, and subsurface utility engineering.

Larger private firms and engineering companies maintain hiring pipelines from academic institutions, accelerating the adoption of standards.

4. Project Scale and Client Expectations Northern California:

Projects tend to be lower-budget, smaller-scale, often with residential or agricultural clients.

Lower client expectations and budgets can lead to cut corners or minimal documentation.

Southern California:

Greater concentration of public infrastructure, utility coordination, and legal retracements.

Clients often demand meticulously documented ALTA surveys, SUE deliverables, and liability protection.

5. Cultural and Ethical Influences

In Northern California, some unethical practices persist from the legacy of unchecked fraud, especially in counties that were historically under-regulated.

By contrast, in Southern California, a higher volume of litigation, peer review, and media scrutiny incentivizes strict adherence to technical and ethical standards.

Additional Clarifying Questions
To fully understand or correct this regional gap, consider exploring:

To what extent do local governments enforce PLS involvement in project oversight?

How many counties in each region have full-time County Surveyors reviewing records?

Are continuing education hours distributed evenly across regions, or is one region attending more seminars and regulatory training?

Do Southern California surveyors interact more with engineers or multi-disciplinary firms, increasing their technical exposure?

Summary Table: Key Differentiators

Aspect Northern California
Development History - Fragmented, rural legacy parcels
County Oversight - Inconsistent, often minimal
Education and Training - Less structured, apprenticeship-based
Client Type - Individual, private, rural landowners
Ethical/Legal Environment - Residual tolerance for informal retracements

Aspect Southern California
Development History - Planned urban and suburban growth
County Oversight - Strong agency involvement, QA/QC enforcement
Education and Training - Formal pipelines from academic institutions
Client Type - Institutional, commercial, legal stakeholders
Ethical/Legal Environment - High expectation for litigation-ready records


[There was a second variation available that provided the same/similar information. I picked this answer only because it was first. I also pasted both to Word. Neither answer has any edits - besides reformatting the Summary Table for reading on the forum. Without referencing Benson the answer still included "In Northern California, some unethical practices persist from the legacy of unchecked fraud, especially in counties that were historically under-regulated." Interesting.]

DWoolley

[Ric7308]

Scary...

[Mike Mueller]

Thanks for posting that.

I am stoked to see that apparently this forum is helping inform and train LLM AI chatbots about surveying in CA! Go us! Also, your videos are seeming to make a difference in the zeitgeist as well.

Mikey Mueller, PLS 9076
Sonoma County

[Jim Frame]

The question is, "How much of ChatGPT's learning on the matter came directly from Dave Woolley posts on this forum?"

[steffan]

The question is, "How much of ChatGPT's learning on the matter came directly from Dave Woolley posts on this forum?"

Dave posted that He posed the question to ChatGPT with the caveat that the information would be “excluding any information provided by a California Land Surveyors Association (CLSA) forum or Orange County CLSA ten minute surveyor video information”

However it appears Chatgpt is not capable of citing its sources, at least not accurately. A quick search into this matter reveals that there does not appear to be a way to know exactly what Chatgpt uses nor its validity. See the following testimonial related to the issue of source data:

“Lawyers Steven Schwartz and Peter LoDuca learned this the hard way. They used ChatGPT to write parts of a case, and in addition to writing what a judge referred to as gibberish, it cited cases that didn't exist. Schwartz claimed to believe that ChatGPT was "like a super search engine".[2] It's not. LLMs are known to "hallucinate", or effectively make up facts and citations/sources.[3] There are disagreements about why, but… these are generative models. They're designed to create. I doubt it's possible to make them not hallucinate.”

So Jim’s question seems valid even if there was an attempt to exclude source data, based on my limited research as to how Chatgpt works.

[DWoolley]

The question is, "How much of ChatGPT's learning on the matter came directly from Dave Woolley posts on this forum?"

Jim, I asked.

"How much of the response was sourced to David Woolley, California licensed land surveyor, writing or teachings?"

ChatGPT said:

"None of the content in the response was sourced from David Woolley’s writings or teachings.

The response was independently generated using general knowledge of:

California's land development history, differences in county-level enforcement and map-checking capacity, land surveying practices shaped by urbanization and infrastructure needs, typical firm structures and workflows in rural vs. urban regions, and recognized challenges in training access across geographic regions.

No CLSA forum posts, Orange County CLSA videos, or material by David Woolley were used or referenced.

Would you like to incorporate or distinguish any ideas that are specific to David Woolley’s work?"

[Weird that it knows I exist—really weird. It certainly lends further credibility to my "Benson Bullseye" theory, which I originally came up with in a more tongue-in-cheek context to explain the, ahem, unwieldy(?) practices in some Bay Area counties. While it appears the bullseye theory has merit, it's certainly no Newton’s theory of gravity. That said, the long history of fraud and its lingering effects—particularly near or within the so-called bullseye—does not mean there are no honest, well-educated land surveyors in the area. In fact, I know several - considering the documented local history and culture of fraud in the area, it makes these folks all the more remarkable for having risen above it. The information also helps explain the resistance to lawful regulation.]

DWoolley

[LS_8750]

Chatgpt Induced Psychosis?
Look it up.

Let's be careful.....

[Peter Ehlert]

True that

[DWoolley]

Chatgpt Induced Psychosis?
Look it up.

Let's be careful.....

It is the modern Magic 8 Ball that writes in well formatted paragraphs. A parlor game for regular guy like me - that very smart folks believe it will evolve into the fire breathing Godzilla job crusher of all time, especially for the creative types. I have seen, firsthand, several examples of jobs lost. Personally, I have hard earned skills that AI can do better in minutes and the push of a few buttons. True to the claims, it frees me up to do "other things", but if I employed someone to do the work I would no longer need them.

Listening to a long format podcast recently, a very successful tech giant said "AI will be smarter than any human alive by 2026 or 2027 and smarter than all humans alive by 2030 or 2031." He put the serious downside risks to all humanity at 20% - 80% it will work out for the better overall and some unforseeable issues.

I only wish I was smarter and could do better than to ask it the origins of the California geographical survey practices. Essentially, I am the equivalent of the guy in '44 that took his family to Los Alamos to picnic and watch the mushroom cloud and later, complain about the "sunburns" we got.

Think about this, after Jim's question, I asked it what I would have said, and additional DWoolley "perspectives" on topic. First it described my professional personality, my methods of delivery and provided my response to the same question. It was to close home, sorta lost its parlor game shine. Eight BILLION people in the world and it "knows" me? Unsettling.

DWoolley

[RAM]

I did not read every post, but I do take offense to the claim of Northern Calif. has more unethical practice than Southern Calif. Based on what? Personal bias, enforcement cases? I would think that it is reversed, due to volume, competitive market, number of LS's, etc. Would be interested in the true statistics. Just because I don't practice in the big city, doesn't mean I don't know what I am doing or what is the acceptable practice.

PS I find it discouraging that a large number do not know the true definition of "Boundary Line Agreement"

[Peter Ehlert]

+1