Does anyone know how many States have two (or more) levels of PLS Licenses, similar to Texas? My Google search was fruitless.
Thanks,
Levels of PLS License
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Stan_K
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Levels of PLS License
Stanley King, CA PLS 8038
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Coy Glasscock
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The PLS is the same thing as the Texas RPLS and the CfedS is the same as the LSLS in Texas.
The Federal Government owns NO land in the State of Texas (even national Parks are techniclly leased from the state) So the LSLS allows a surveyor to survey State Land which is the highest government level, it is the same as a CfedS being able to survey Fed land here.
The Federal Government owns NO land in the State of Texas (even national Parks are techniclly leased from the state) So the LSLS allows a surveyor to survey State Land which is the highest government level, it is the same as a CfedS being able to survey Fed land here.
Coy J. Glasscock
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RAM
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I do not think that is quite true. Cfeds alone do not allow you to survey in Calif. I believe the purpose of Cfeds is to certify a surveyor to survey Indian lands held in Trust. Due to the shortage of Fed surveyors, allows a private surveyor to contract to survey Indian land. I for one think a multi level LS is a variable idea if properly managed.
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E_Page
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When I worked in PA, I remember something about an A license and a B license. As I wasn't quite ready to apply, I didn't quite get the limitations on practice.
But then again, I had someone from PA recently tell me that they don't have multiple levels. Maybe they did 20 years ago and have since got rid of it. (???)
But then again, I had someone from PA recently tell me that they don't have multiple levels. Maybe they did 20 years ago and have since got rid of it. (???)
Evan Page, PLS
A Visiting Forum Essayist
A Visiting Forum Essayist
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Coy Glasscock
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I believe it is exactly the same. I do not beleive you can hold a CfedS in california without already being a PLS. The same as you can not hold a LSLS without first holding a RPLS.
If you remeber Indian Land is held in trust by our Feds. If you survey Joe's land you stamp with your PLS, if you survey indian land you stamp with your CfedS. The same in Texas. If you survey Joe Bob's land you stamp with your RPLS and if you survey indian lands there (which are held in trust by the State, not Fed) then you stamp with your LSLS.
Again PLS = RPLS
and CfedS = LSLS
If you remeber Indian Land is held in trust by our Feds. If you survey Joe's land you stamp with your PLS, if you survey indian land you stamp with your CfedS. The same in Texas. If you survey Joe Bob's land you stamp with your RPLS and if you survey indian lands there (which are held in trust by the State, not Fed) then you stamp with your LSLS.
Again PLS = RPLS
and CfedS = LSLS
Coy J. Glasscock
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Ian Wilson
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Not true, Coy although I can see how you get there from here.
The LSLS in Texas is a far more onerous position than the CFedS is. Once elevated to the ranks of the LSLS (and there are scarce few so elevated), virtually everything produced by the LSLS is held for recording in the public record. Without the LSLS, the surveyor may not survey state or school lands. End of Story.
The CFedS designation means that the holder has spent a chunk of time learning the "secret" BLM handshake and hair tonic formula used by Dennis Mouland. It means that the holder is versed in location of records not able to be held or stored by the local jurisdiction because the maps are of parcels located in "sovereign" Indian Lands. It does NOT mean that any surveyors can no longer survey on Indian Lands. It does NOT mean that the CFedS holder is a superior surveyor or allowed to perform any other survey than another LS could.
The CFedS is essentially in response to the fact the Indian Lands are often sovereign lands outside the authority of the state or county which surround the Indian Lands. As a consequence, no license was necessary to survey in these lands. The unfortunate ramification of this ironic twist is that many surveys were done on Indian Lands by people who were not licensed/competent/diligent/capable. The surveys they performed were of such poor quality that the tribe’s interests suffered. As we all know, to the layperson, a crappy survey looks the same as a really top-notch survey…it’s just the bill that looks different…$25/hour v $200/hour.
The CFedS program creates a designation that tribal governments MAY use as a criterion to include or exclude surveyors from work on the Indian Lands. It is not a requirement nor is it mandatory. In cases where certain surveyors have looked properly and professionally looked after the needs of the tribal governments for which they worked, those tribal governments are likely to remain loyal to the surveyors who have served them well. In other cases, the tribal councils will have the ammunition to rid themselves of parasites out to line their own pockets without thought to the interests of their clients.
I can easily see how one could equate the LS/CFedS relationship with that of the Texan RPLS/LSLS relationship. However, they are vastly different. Just ask Dennis…
The LSLS in Texas is a far more onerous position than the CFedS is. Once elevated to the ranks of the LSLS (and there are scarce few so elevated), virtually everything produced by the LSLS is held for recording in the public record. Without the LSLS, the surveyor may not survey state or school lands. End of Story.
The CFedS designation means that the holder has spent a chunk of time learning the "secret" BLM handshake and hair tonic formula used by Dennis Mouland. It means that the holder is versed in location of records not able to be held or stored by the local jurisdiction because the maps are of parcels located in "sovereign" Indian Lands. It does NOT mean that any surveyors can no longer survey on Indian Lands. It does NOT mean that the CFedS holder is a superior surveyor or allowed to perform any other survey than another LS could.
The CFedS is essentially in response to the fact the Indian Lands are often sovereign lands outside the authority of the state or county which surround the Indian Lands. As a consequence, no license was necessary to survey in these lands. The unfortunate ramification of this ironic twist is that many surveys were done on Indian Lands by people who were not licensed/competent/diligent/capable. The surveys they performed were of such poor quality that the tribe’s interests suffered. As we all know, to the layperson, a crappy survey looks the same as a really top-notch survey…it’s just the bill that looks different…$25/hour v $200/hour.
The CFedS program creates a designation that tribal governments MAY use as a criterion to include or exclude surveyors from work on the Indian Lands. It is not a requirement nor is it mandatory. In cases where certain surveyors have looked properly and professionally looked after the needs of the tribal governments for which they worked, those tribal governments are likely to remain loyal to the surveyors who have served them well. In other cases, the tribal councils will have the ammunition to rid themselves of parasites out to line their own pockets without thought to the interests of their clients.
I can easily see how one could equate the LS/CFedS relationship with that of the Texan RPLS/LSLS relationship. However, they are vastly different. Just ask Dennis…
Ian Wilson, P.L.S. (CA / NV / CO)
Alameda County Surveyor
Alameda County Surveyor
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dmi
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Stan try NCEES
Stan,
I don't havre answer to you questions and it seems so far no one else who has posted does either.
My understanding of the current situation for CFEDS is that there is no requirement to use them on indian land nor is there a requirement to use a state licensed surveyor on federal interest lands. There is a movement to encourage tribes to use CFEDS and for other federal interest lands it is going to be required that the survey contracts go to CFEDS. So in the future contracts that may have gone to licensed surveyors for federal authority surveys, these contracts will go to CFEDS. Other facets such as the Boundary Assurance Certificate, this certificate cannot be prepared by someone who only holds a state license. The BAC is used by the tribes and other federal agencies...
I don't havre answer to you questions and it seems so far no one else who has posted does either.
My understanding of the current situation for CFEDS is that there is no requirement to use them on indian land nor is there a requirement to use a state licensed surveyor on federal interest lands. There is a movement to encourage tribes to use CFEDS and for other federal interest lands it is going to be required that the survey contracts go to CFEDS. So in the future contracts that may have gone to licensed surveyors for federal authority surveys, these contracts will go to CFEDS. Other facets such as the Boundary Assurance Certificate, this certificate cannot be prepared by someone who only holds a state license. The BAC is used by the tribes and other federal agencies...
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Coy Glasscock
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Just so everyone understands what a LSLS is:
A LSLS is for filing paperwork only. So to answer your question the CFedS is the same. A LSLS holds nothing over a RPLS with the exception of “Paperwork†needed for the GLO of Texas.
Ian,
Not to be an A-hole, but because I love a good debate. So please don’t take offense to any of this. It’s all in an effort to learn as much as possible and meant in good fun.
To let you know where I am getting my info.
1. My wife is licensed to practice Property/Boundary Law in the State of Texas.
2. There has been a Glasscock (my family) as a Land Surveyor in Texas since it was the Republic of Texas. (You will notice a county named Glasscock, that land was given to George Glasscock (again family) as payment for surveying and laying out the town site of Austin for the new Capitol of Texas, also you will find that Georgetown, which is on the outskirts of Austin, is on land given to him as payment of surveying as well)
3. I have a brother and/or other relatives that are RPLS and/or LSLS currently.
4. I personally spent 15 years of my career surveying in the State of Texas as well as for the State itself. (Preparing for Land Survey related Court cases in Rusk, Travis and Smith Counties)
I do not agree with the statement; “Without the LSLS, the surveyor may not survey state or school lands. End of Story.â€
A RPLS may survey state and school land just as a PLS may survey for California state and school lands.
As defined by the State of Texas
"Licensed state land surveyor" means a surveyor licensed by the board to survey land in which the state or the permanent school fund has an interest or perform other original surveys for the purpose of filing field notes in the General Land Office.
"State land surveying" means the science or practice of land measurement according to established and recognized methods engaged in as a profession or service for the public for compensation and consisting of the following activities conducted when the resulting field notes or maps are to be filed with the General Land Office:
(A) determining by survey the location or relocation of original land grant boundaries and corners;
(B) calculating area and preparing field note descriptions of surveyed and unsurveyed land or land in which the state or the permanent school fund has an interest; and
(C) preparing maps showing the survey results.
The reference to GLO is for the GLO of the State of Texas, not the GLO as we think of Federal. The federal GLO never existed in the State of Texas and still does not. They had their own before it was a state. As part of the conditions of becoming a State within the US, Texas insisted and was granted the right to maintain all lands (interest, records and authority).
Also when it refers to “original land grant†boundaries. This is referring to Mexican Land Grants that where taken over by the Republic of Texas, (1836) before Texas ever became a State.
Just like here, a Land Grant had to be verified and a patent was issued. Not by the US, but by the Republic of Texas General Land Office. Today there is still a General Land Office of Texas, it is funded and run by the State. (Not to be confused with the BLM or the old GLO of the US)
http://www.glo.state.tx.us/about/landoffice.html
It also states permanent school fund, not to confused with ISDs. They are two different things. I know because I made a lot of money surveying for schools there.
Everything you say about the CfedS is the same as the LSLS, just replace “BLM†with “GLO†and then replace any reference to Federal with the reference Texas. You will see the same language.
Bottom line if you need to survey with your paperwork going to BLM then you need a CfedS, if you need to survey with your paperwork going to GLO then you need a LSLS.
If you need to survey with your paperwork going to the County then you need a RPLS or a PLS.
Again it is all about paperwork, it just comes down to where you need your paperwork to go.
A LSLS is for filing paperwork only. So to answer your question the CFedS is the same. A LSLS holds nothing over a RPLS with the exception of “Paperwork†needed for the GLO of Texas.
Ian,
Not to be an A-hole, but because I love a good debate. So please don’t take offense to any of this. It’s all in an effort to learn as much as possible and meant in good fun.
To let you know where I am getting my info.
1. My wife is licensed to practice Property/Boundary Law in the State of Texas.
2. There has been a Glasscock (my family) as a Land Surveyor in Texas since it was the Republic of Texas. (You will notice a county named Glasscock, that land was given to George Glasscock (again family) as payment for surveying and laying out the town site of Austin for the new Capitol of Texas, also you will find that Georgetown, which is on the outskirts of Austin, is on land given to him as payment of surveying as well)
3. I have a brother and/or other relatives that are RPLS and/or LSLS currently.
4. I personally spent 15 years of my career surveying in the State of Texas as well as for the State itself. (Preparing for Land Survey related Court cases in Rusk, Travis and Smith Counties)
I do not agree with the statement; “Without the LSLS, the surveyor may not survey state or school lands. End of Story.â€
A RPLS may survey state and school land just as a PLS may survey for California state and school lands.
As defined by the State of Texas
"Licensed state land surveyor" means a surveyor licensed by the board to survey land in which the state or the permanent school fund has an interest or perform other original surveys for the purpose of filing field notes in the General Land Office.
"State land surveying" means the science or practice of land measurement according to established and recognized methods engaged in as a profession or service for the public for compensation and consisting of the following activities conducted when the resulting field notes or maps are to be filed with the General Land Office:
(A) determining by survey the location or relocation of original land grant boundaries and corners;
(B) calculating area and preparing field note descriptions of surveyed and unsurveyed land or land in which the state or the permanent school fund has an interest; and
(C) preparing maps showing the survey results.
The reference to GLO is for the GLO of the State of Texas, not the GLO as we think of Federal. The federal GLO never existed in the State of Texas and still does not. They had their own before it was a state. As part of the conditions of becoming a State within the US, Texas insisted and was granted the right to maintain all lands (interest, records and authority).
Also when it refers to “original land grant†boundaries. This is referring to Mexican Land Grants that where taken over by the Republic of Texas, (1836) before Texas ever became a State.
Just like here, a Land Grant had to be verified and a patent was issued. Not by the US, but by the Republic of Texas General Land Office. Today there is still a General Land Office of Texas, it is funded and run by the State. (Not to be confused with the BLM or the old GLO of the US)
http://www.glo.state.tx.us/about/landoffice.html
It also states permanent school fund, not to confused with ISDs. They are two different things. I know because I made a lot of money surveying for schools there.
Everything you say about the CfedS is the same as the LSLS, just replace “BLM†with “GLO†and then replace any reference to Federal with the reference Texas. You will see the same language.
Bottom line if you need to survey with your paperwork going to BLM then you need a CfedS, if you need to survey with your paperwork going to GLO then you need a LSLS.
If you need to survey with your paperwork going to the County then you need a RPLS or a PLS.
Again it is all about paperwork, it just comes down to where you need your paperwork to go.
Coy J. Glasscock
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Coy Glasscock
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Ric7308
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I understand that Georgia inacted at least two different levels of licensure during the past year or two. If it wasn't actually confirmed, I believe it is in the process. This effort was to separate out GIS practioners from Boundary Surveyors. You may want to check out the Georgia State Board web site as I am citing this from memory and may not be entirely correct.
Ric
Ric
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Gromatici
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CFeds
Do CFeds have a different stamp as Coy seems to indicate or is it just a certification or endorsement by the Federal Government that the person has been educated and trained specifically for surveying Tribal holdings?
As I understand it, Native American Tribes have used unlicensed persons for their boundary work since they are a sovereign state. To encourage better surveying products, the FEDs created this program (where you have to be licensed to join) so training specific to the survey of Indian Lands is given. I thought the idea was the Tribes would be encouraged to use these licensed persons with specialized training and education for such surveys, although the reality an unlicensed person could survey the land due to the sovereignty issue.
Despite Coy's rich heritage in Texas, I still don’t believe that CFeds is similar to a LSLS (Texas) because there isn’t anything a CFeds could do that I can’t do (CA PLS). In fact, you don’t even have to be licensed due to the sovereignty issue. You wouldn’t even have to use your own stamp considering that issue, unless you wanted to provide a Record of Survey as a professional consideration.
CFeds = Federal Certified Land Surveyor. Please choose from the following list of graduates since they are all licensed in their respective states (means they are experienced and minimally competent per their sate requirements) and have passed our tests showing they are competent to survey your Tribal holdings.
PLS = California Land Surveyor. You can pick me too.
As I understand it, Native American Tribes have used unlicensed persons for their boundary work since they are a sovereign state. To encourage better surveying products, the FEDs created this program (where you have to be licensed to join) so training specific to the survey of Indian Lands is given. I thought the idea was the Tribes would be encouraged to use these licensed persons with specialized training and education for such surveys, although the reality an unlicensed person could survey the land due to the sovereignty issue.
Despite Coy's rich heritage in Texas, I still don’t believe that CFeds is similar to a LSLS (Texas) because there isn’t anything a CFeds could do that I can’t do (CA PLS). In fact, you don’t even have to be licensed due to the sovereignty issue. You wouldn’t even have to use your own stamp considering that issue, unless you wanted to provide a Record of Survey as a professional consideration.
CFeds = Federal Certified Land Surveyor. Please choose from the following list of graduates since they are all licensed in their respective states (means they are experienced and minimally competent per their sate requirements) and have passed our tests showing they are competent to survey your Tribal holdings.
PLS = California Land Surveyor. You can pick me too.
Eric J Ackerman, PLS, RPLS, CFedS
Licenses: CA. AZ, ID, NV, CO,UT
Gromatici Land Surveying, Inc.
http://www.gromatici.com
proposals@gromatici.com
Licenses: CA. AZ, ID, NV, CO,UT
Gromatici Land Surveying, Inc.
http://www.gromatici.com
proposals@gromatici.com
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dmi
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New Contract era....
Eric,
MY view is that we are seeing the beginning steps of a new contract era. This time rather than hand out contracts to anyone who claims to be a surveyor. The federal government is going to require specialized trainning for licensed surveyors to be elligible to bid on survey projects on federal interest lands. The CFEDS program will provide that trainning. The program,presently, is mainly concerned with Indians lands. Some Indian lands are held in Trust by the federal government for the particular tribe. Even though the tribes are sovereign, they are not allowed to move lands from fee to trust or trust to fee based upon the Tribes whim alone. It is a unique relationship, to say the least.
Initially, the FEDS were not going to require state licensure for the CFEDS program, but all the State Surveyor's organizations pitched a fit and State Licensure became an additonal requirement. At this point, there is still no absolute requirement for state licensure in order to be able to survey indian lands and/or other federal interest holdings. The Department of Interior is currently working on the Tribes to get them to see the benefits of using a CFEDS. As for other Federal interest lands, when new projects come along they are going to BLM, Forest Service and CFEDS. Non CFEDs contractors are going to be phased out.
So what can a CFEDS do that another CA PLS, cannot? The CFEDS can survey federal interest lands, prepare specialized reports that the Federal Government uses to acquire new federal lands and/or fee to trust surveys and special reports to finalize the fee to trust transaction., as well as survey Indian lands. When a CFEDS performs a federal authority and that survey is accepted and approved it is basically an action on behalf of the United States Federal government as overseen by the secretary of the department of interior.
There is no official seal for CFEDS, but some surveyors have made up their own.
The Texas LSLS program is similair to the CFEDs only in the requirement for additional training in order to be accepted into the bidding process for the project. This still results in a state authority survey, a survey for the state prepared by an LSLS I mean.
All of this is based upon my understanding of the current state of affairs. others may have better and more up to date knowledge.
MY view is that we are seeing the beginning steps of a new contract era. This time rather than hand out contracts to anyone who claims to be a surveyor. The federal government is going to require specialized trainning for licensed surveyors to be elligible to bid on survey projects on federal interest lands. The CFEDS program will provide that trainning. The program,presently, is mainly concerned with Indians lands. Some Indian lands are held in Trust by the federal government for the particular tribe. Even though the tribes are sovereign, they are not allowed to move lands from fee to trust or trust to fee based upon the Tribes whim alone. It is a unique relationship, to say the least.
Initially, the FEDS were not going to require state licensure for the CFEDS program, but all the State Surveyor's organizations pitched a fit and State Licensure became an additonal requirement. At this point, there is still no absolute requirement for state licensure in order to be able to survey indian lands and/or other federal interest holdings. The Department of Interior is currently working on the Tribes to get them to see the benefits of using a CFEDS. As for other Federal interest lands, when new projects come along they are going to BLM, Forest Service and CFEDS. Non CFEDs contractors are going to be phased out.
So what can a CFEDS do that another CA PLS, cannot? The CFEDS can survey federal interest lands, prepare specialized reports that the Federal Government uses to acquire new federal lands and/or fee to trust surveys and special reports to finalize the fee to trust transaction., as well as survey Indian lands. When a CFEDS performs a federal authority and that survey is accepted and approved it is basically an action on behalf of the United States Federal government as overseen by the secretary of the department of interior.
There is no official seal for CFEDS, but some surveyors have made up their own.
The Texas LSLS program is similair to the CFEDs only in the requirement for additional training in order to be accepted into the bidding process for the project. This still results in a state authority survey, a survey for the state prepared by an LSLS I mean.
All of this is based upon my understanding of the current state of affairs. others may have better and more up to date knowledge.
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Gromatici
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Cfeds
Very interesting! So maybe Coy's explanation was +- true? Another good reason to get certified!
Eric J Ackerman, PLS, RPLS, CFedS
Licenses: CA. AZ, ID, NV, CO,UT
Gromatici Land Surveying, Inc.
http://www.gromatici.com
proposals@gromatici.com
Licenses: CA. AZ, ID, NV, CO,UT
Gromatici Land Surveying, Inc.
http://www.gromatici.com
proposals@gromatici.com
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Surveyor826
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- Location: Golden State
States with two "grades" or divisions of license
This is late, but ...
Virginia has a "B" license which allows the surveyor to perform full blown Hydrology and hydraulic calculations.
West Virginia has a "U" license which allows underground surveying.
Each of those require verified substantial experience performing the tasks and successful completion of an examination for that particular specialty.
The discussion of the CFedS is somewhat off topic as the CFedS is not a State issued license, but a Certificate issued by BLM stating that you have completed their training and passed their examination for minimal competency. Any survey completed by a CFedS is done under their State license, the CFedS certificate will not serve in lieu of State licensure. See cfeds.org for what it is and is not.
Cheers!
Virginia has a "B" license which allows the surveyor to perform full blown Hydrology and hydraulic calculations.
West Virginia has a "U" license which allows underground surveying.
Each of those require verified substantial experience performing the tasks and successful completion of an examination for that particular specialty.
The discussion of the CFedS is somewhat off topic as the CFedS is not a State issued license, but a Certificate issued by BLM stating that you have completed their training and passed their examination for minimal competency. Any survey completed by a CFedS is done under their State license, the CFedS certificate will not serve in lieu of State licensure. See cfeds.org for what it is and is not.
Cheers!
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dmi
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Issued by the Secretary of the Interior. A state license is required to apply for a CFEDS, but CFEDS DO NOT OPERATE UNDER STATE RULES WHERE THE SURVEY IS CONTROLED BY FEDERAL REGULATION.
Types of Authority under which a survey can be performed
No Authority
State Authority
Federal Authority
You are correct CFEDS is off topic of the original post
Types of Authority under which a survey can be performed
No Authority
State Authority
Federal Authority
You are correct CFEDS is off topic of the original post
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Surveyor826
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- Location: Golden State
Someone previously mentioned Maryland
Maryland has "Land Surveyor" and "Property Line Surveyor" designations.
The Property Line Surveyor is roughly equivalent to a CA P.L.S., the Maryland "Land Surveyor" designee can also perform the following tasks per the MD Business Occupations and Professions Code, Article 15:
"in conjunction with the site development or subdivision of land, the preparation and design of plans for the following projects, provided that such preparation and design are in accordance with design manuals, details, and standards accepted by the State or local authority:
1. road and street grades;
2. sediment and erosion control measures;
3. nonpressurized closed storm drainage and stormwater management systems; and
4. open conduit storm drainage and stormwater management systems."
As far as CFedS:
Read your certificate and you will see it is issued by:
"United States Department of Interior
Bureau of Land Management"
What rules you would be operating under is not the point. The point is if you get a survey contract from BLM it will be for work in a state in which you are licensed. Federal authority or not.
Cheers!
The Property Line Surveyor is roughly equivalent to a CA P.L.S., the Maryland "Land Surveyor" designee can also perform the following tasks per the MD Business Occupations and Professions Code, Article 15:
"in conjunction with the site development or subdivision of land, the preparation and design of plans for the following projects, provided that such preparation and design are in accordance with design manuals, details, and standards accepted by the State or local authority:
1. road and street grades;
2. sediment and erosion control measures;
3. nonpressurized closed storm drainage and stormwater management systems; and
4. open conduit storm drainage and stormwater management systems."
As far as CFedS:
Read your certificate and you will see it is issued by:
"United States Department of Interior
Bureau of Land Management"
What rules you would be operating under is not the point. The point is if you get a survey contract from BLM it will be for work in a state in which you are licensed. Federal authority or not.
Cheers!
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dmi
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- Location: San Francisco
- Contact:
I beg to differ. The rules are different and they are determined by the authority under which the survey is performed. The last time I checked the BLM gets it authority and direction from the Dept of Interior, not the other way around. At this time there is no requirement to have a state license to perform a federal authority survey. This is the reason, in part , for the certification program. They are trying to prevent untrained and unlicensed surveyors from providing survey services on Indian lands that are held in Federal trust.
From the certificate issued to me..." You shall execute cadastral surveying services in accordance with the requirements of law and the applicable regulations and manuals of the DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR and Bureau of Land Management."
"Certified Federal Surveyor of the United States of America Certification No. !099"
The contract could come from a variety of federal agencies. I know I'm splitting hairs, but somtimes that is what is called for...
From the certificate issued to me..." You shall execute cadastral surveying services in accordance with the requirements of law and the applicable regulations and manuals of the DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR and Bureau of Land Management."
"Certified Federal Surveyor of the United States of America Certification No. !099"
The contract could come from a variety of federal agencies. I know I'm splitting hairs, but somtimes that is what is called for...
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E_Page
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From the CFEDS website:
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Who is eligible for the CFedS program?
Registered Professional Land Surveyors in good standing.
Back to Top
Will the CFedS certification allow me to work in States where I am not presently registered?
No. This is not a licensing program. You must have a current license for the State in which you are working.
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The law exempts federal surveyors working on federal lands from state licensing laws. However, as a CFEDS surveyor, you are NOT a federal surveyor. You are a private consultant working on a project for which federal rules apply.
It would appear that although you would be working under the federal set of rules while working on the federal land, they will still require you to have a valid license to survey in the state in which the project is located.
In fact, one does not even qualify for the CFEDS program unless one holds a valid license to practice surveying.
With the BLMs own surveyors, most have come up through the ranks and have a solid base of knowledge in both survey basics common to all types of surveying, and in the federal rules and methods.
With a non-federal employee entering into a contract to perform surveying for the feds, they (the BLM) does not have the benefit of knowing your work history and training. The state license provides for some minimal assurance that you have proven at least minimal competence as a professional surveyor.
Just because their own surveyors are exempt from licensing, that doesn't necessarily carry through to their consultants. If the projects are entirely on federal land and have no effect beyond those borders, then the feds have the option to require a license or not. It appears that they have opted to require it.
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Who is eligible for the CFedS program?
Registered Professional Land Surveyors in good standing.
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Will the CFedS certification allow me to work in States where I am not presently registered?
No. This is not a licensing program. You must have a current license for the State in which you are working.
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The law exempts federal surveyors working on federal lands from state licensing laws. However, as a CFEDS surveyor, you are NOT a federal surveyor. You are a private consultant working on a project for which federal rules apply.
It would appear that although you would be working under the federal set of rules while working on the federal land, they will still require you to have a valid license to survey in the state in which the project is located.
In fact, one does not even qualify for the CFEDS program unless one holds a valid license to practice surveying.
With the BLMs own surveyors, most have come up through the ranks and have a solid base of knowledge in both survey basics common to all types of surveying, and in the federal rules and methods.
With a non-federal employee entering into a contract to perform surveying for the feds, they (the BLM) does not have the benefit of knowing your work history and training. The state license provides for some minimal assurance that you have proven at least minimal competence as a professional surveyor.
Just because their own surveyors are exempt from licensing, that doesn't necessarily carry through to their consultants. If the projects are entirely on federal land and have no effect beyond those borders, then the feds have the option to require a license or not. It appears that they have opted to require it.
Evan Page, PLS
A Visiting Forum Essayist
A Visiting Forum Essayist
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Surveyor826
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:59 pm
- Location: Golden State
Dept of Consumer Affairs or BPELS?
If someone were to ask who issued your surveying license would you reply the Department of Consumer Affairs
or the Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors?
Both are listed on the license and BPELS is under the DCR.
Following your logic a CFedS could say he was Certified by the President of the United States (acting through the Secretary of the Interior).
Again, read your Certificate. Department of the Interior / Bureau of Land Management, and signed only by the Chief Cadastral Surveyor. What Bureau is he in?
Likewise, a review of the LS Act section 8370:
8730. The following persons are not required to be licensed under
this chapter:
(a) Officers and employees of the United States of America, practicing solely as those officers or employees, except when surveying the exterior boundaries of federal lands in this state.
Officers/employees exempt, contractors are not exempt. Also note the exterior boundary exception.
Likewise in California as a Land Surveyor you are REQUIRED to sign and seal "All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other documents issued" (Section 8761)
In a so called "Federal Authority" survey you would be operating under the instructions provided, but you would still be subject to the LS Act.
The Federal employee would not, but you would by virtue of your license.
Dont confuse that with being bound by CA case law or Codes as far as boundary creation or reestablishment would go.
Thanks E_Page for going to the www.cfeds.org site to get the real info.
Cheers
or the Board for Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors?
Both are listed on the license and BPELS is under the DCR.
Following your logic a CFedS could say he was Certified by the President of the United States (acting through the Secretary of the Interior).
Again, read your Certificate. Department of the Interior / Bureau of Land Management, and signed only by the Chief Cadastral Surveyor. What Bureau is he in?
Likewise, a review of the LS Act section 8370:
8730. The following persons are not required to be licensed under
this chapter:
(a) Officers and employees of the United States of America, practicing solely as those officers or employees, except when surveying the exterior boundaries of federal lands in this state.
Officers/employees exempt, contractors are not exempt. Also note the exterior boundary exception.
Likewise in California as a Land Surveyor you are REQUIRED to sign and seal "All final maps, plats, reports, descriptions, or other documents issued" (Section 8761)
In a so called "Federal Authority" survey you would be operating under the instructions provided, but you would still be subject to the LS Act.
The Federal employee would not, but you would by virtue of your license.
Dont confuse that with being bound by CA case law or Codes as far as boundary creation or reestablishment would go.
Thanks E_Page for going to the www.cfeds.org site to get the real info.
Cheers
-
dmi
- Posts: 981
- Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:42 pm
- Location: San Francisco
- Contact:
I think we are splitting some fine hairs here
again reading from the certificate in my hand " Dane Mark Ince has met the qualifications and is hereby recognized as a
CERTIFIED FEDERAL SURVEYOR....." So if I can trust my eyes, I gather the Department of thr Interior thinks I am a Federal Surveyor, or qualified to do that work. I see no mention on the certificate of "Consultant"... When they fisrt started the program, they were not going to require a state license because the surveys were on Federal interest land where there is ,as we have come to agree, no requirement to be a licensed surveyor. When the state associations got wind of this they put pressure on BLM and then BLM decided it would be a good idea to require state licensure.... The untrained, unlicensed debacle on Indian lands is what prompt the creation of the program...At this time there is still no federal mandate, that I know, of that requires tribes to use CFEDS or for that matter any federal agency. I have been told they are working on it. That is the goal to have CFEDS take over the surveying needed by Indian tribes and federal agencies.
So i have no idea why you are busting my chops over this....
You have not read CAREFULLY what I have written.
BTW Just who is Surveyor826?
again reading from the certificate in my hand " Dane Mark Ince has met the qualifications and is hereby recognized as a
CERTIFIED FEDERAL SURVEYOR....." So if I can trust my eyes, I gather the Department of thr Interior thinks I am a Federal Surveyor, or qualified to do that work. I see no mention on the certificate of "Consultant"... When they fisrt started the program, they were not going to require a state license because the surveys were on Federal interest land where there is ,as we have come to agree, no requirement to be a licensed surveyor. When the state associations got wind of this they put pressure on BLM and then BLM decided it would be a good idea to require state licensure.... The untrained, unlicensed debacle on Indian lands is what prompt the creation of the program...At this time there is still no federal mandate, that I know, of that requires tribes to use CFEDS or for that matter any federal agency. I have been told they are working on it. That is the goal to have CFEDS take over the surveying needed by Indian tribes and federal agencies.
So i have no idea why you are busting my chops over this....
You have not read CAREFULLY what I have written.
BTW Just who is Surveyor826?