The New Generation of Surveyors-How will we pass the torch?

[pls5528]

I have worked in the industry for over 43-years, 25 of which has been in management of field and office surveyors. My concern for the future generation of surveyors is how they will be taught. In the day, you worked on a three or four man party, progressing from rear chainman to party chief, which generally took between two-five years. It was always helpful to have college classes in math and other related science programs (not many around in my day). During that time period, it was a wake-up call when you showed up at work, because the work was hard physically and mentally. This filtered out the ones who could make it, and the ones who went on to do something else in life. Other than Cal State Fresno, and an option program at Cal-Poly, I still don't see much out there for training. It is also quite apparent, that either of these programs have their hands full in getting enough students to attend every year. If the High Schools would open themselves up for training, I, and I know others like myself would be willing to involve ourselves in classes to at least give these kids an exposure to surveying, and so they may understand in general, what it is, and, if it's something they wish to pursue as a career. Some of the hurdles may be the "liability" issues, and, some may be the required "College Teaching Degree", but, if you look at all of the great surveyors out there (and which some have passed on the other side) trained, like me, and so many others, with two year degrees, or none at all which constitute a majority base of the knowledge in this business, we (they) can't be ignored as a possible teaching/training program for them.
If there are any others who wish to discuss this, or have feedback on this issue, please feel free to make suggestions.

Sincerely,
Mike Walters PLS 5528

[dedkad]

The Boy Scouts offers a Surveying Merit Badge. You could contact your local Boy Scout Council office and sign up to be a Merit Badge counselor. Merit Badges expose the scouts to some basics which could lead to them to pursue a career in that field.

[mpallamary]

A number of us are working on this at a national level with NCEES. We have solicited input and comments from CLSA. To date, we have not had a response. We are meeting in June and we had hoped to get some feedback by the end of May so it could be presented.

Your concerns are valid and they are important.

[E_Page]

Mike P.,

Who at CLSA was contacted and how was the contact made?


Mike W.,

My first exposure to surveying happened in high school because my drafting teacher was looking for a different type of project for his advanced drafting class as we were all bored with floor plans, machine parts and the like. He owned or borrowed a transit, a tape, and a level rod and we did a modified stadia topo of a portion of the HS campus. It was modified in that rather than a true stadia survey, he had us turn specific angles from our baseline, making a pattern or radial lines from our occupied point, tape distances along those lines to the shot locations, and to further simplify, had us keep the vertical at 90 degrees. We did read all 3 wires and then compare the stadia split to taped distances.

It was a good short project to fill up a couple weeks of the term. If not for that project, I likely would have never learned the first thing about surveying and gone on to engineering or the military.

The lack of a state teaching credential may be of no consequence if a high school has a class that is somewhat related to surveying, like a CAD class. Teaming up with a teacher of such a class to offer one or more projects to expose students to land surveying could be as simple as the project my drafting teacher set up for us, to something a bit more involved such as a traverse, field and CAD mapping of a more substantial part of the high school grounds. Something of slightly greater complexity could even be set up for 2 or more students who wish to team up on a senior project.

Beyond that, some of the community colleges (sporadically) offer surveying classes, and I'm sure that finding qualified instructors would be one of the challenges to offering them. In our area, Sacramento City College usually has a limited offering of survey classes taught mostly by active & retired Caltrans employees, although I don't believe they offer any kind of certificate or degree for a survey curriculum. And if I'm not mistaken Sierra College has or does offer some survey related content.

Those and the Merit Badge program are all possibilities you might look into.

[David Kendall]

Mike W.-

You could mine your local TrigStar committee for interested high school teachers. This is a worthy cause and I would love to hear more about your efforts and results. I recently helped to facilitate a TrigStar exam and the presentation is challenging! The high schooler demographic does not readily demonstrate interest in much of anything, it seems to me.

I hope that you can plant a few seeds in your community and do not get discouraged, one or two of them will likely sprout and thrive (although you may never know about it)! Evan's approach sounds like a good one to me, there is certainly no substitute for hands-on experience...

[Warren Smith]

Boy Scout level is much more approachable. I have presented to Cub Scouts, and the attention span is pretty short. They did appreciate the difference between pacing between two points, taping the distance, and EDM measurement. But then, they can use their phone's GPS even easier ...

However, a spark can be ignited at an early age - it certainly did for me with the measurement of the shadow of a flagpole, a protractor angle and the use of trig to calc the height - all in fourth grade.

[LS_8750]

Crickets.
One esteemed Sonoma County surveyor mentioned to me while leaning on the side of the truck, "You know, surveyors are not made. They are born."

Much like the Jedi code, it is our job to find them. Each of us needs to have a master/journeyman/apprentice code built into our practice.

[E_Page]

There may be some recipe of genetics that we are born with that draws us to this profession, but without someone coming along in our lives with some equipment and a message of "this is surveying" a lot of us would have ended up miserable in some other career - like civil engineering. Egads!!! How utterly boring would that be? ;-)

[LS_8750]

Laughing out loud Mr. Page. Laughing out loud!
Still laughing. Good one!

[pbchief2]

E_Page-
Sacramento City college does offer a degree in Surveying(Geomatics). Unfortunately they do not have enough of an interest to run classes. I know, as I need 1 more surveying class for the program.

Mike Walters PLS 5528-
I ask myself that same question. I see many 1 man crew out running now, that tends to eliminate some of the summer jobs we could be using too bring the Civils over to Surveying. I will be doing a demonstration of some equipment to my sons robotics class in a few weeks, during this demo I will be introducing them to the profession.

I feel we have no cheerleaders for the surveying profession. Take a look around at many of the other state licensed professionals and you see active recruiting and a wide range of educational opportunities.

[RAM]

Random thoughts by a wandering mind:
lately I have put a lot of thought to this topic. It was triggered by my conversation with a Planning Dept. Head, whom will retire within a couple of years, when I asked them if they grooming a replacement, they stated yes but then asked "Are You?"

Working for a small agency within limited resources and personal it will be a challenge to mold someone. In my area there are only 2 primary private company's that do business, both small. so who in 5-7 years will take my place? At my local level one of answers is likely to make presentations at the local High and Middle schools, but it usually ends up being a time management issue.

Yes the ability to have a one person crew is a factor. When I started, it was easy to justify an "intern" on the crew because it was useful to have extra hands. Today most private work is economic driven, so to lower the costs personal are minimized. Most can be taught to be a data technician, what is lost is the mentorship of making field judgment, resolving boundary and the decision process of accepting or rejecting monuments.

Please add you thoughts and comments as I will be pondering for awhile.

[mpallamary]

Please help us deal with this at the national level. I has asked for CLSA's help several times, all to no avail.

We have asked for a response by the end of may so we can advance it at the next NCEES meeting.

Is there any interest other than the few folks here on this forum topic?

[LS_8750]

Mr. Pallamary,
When you got a good thing going, you don't want to spill it over the sides to every fool in earshot. Look at the California gold rush, look at how California got populated, and look at who suffered. It was those that had it good to start with.

What are you afraid of?

[khuerth]

In my County we have ROP (Regional Occupation Program), because of my CAD class I was able to work in an Engineer's office "shadowing". I worked there for three weeks for a couple of hours after school. I wasn't paid but I was exposed to an Engineering office and while it took a few years of actually working in the industry to realize surveying was my calling, I eventually made it here. Hopefully once I am settled hopefully I can get back to my HS and spread the surveying bug through the ROP program.

[pls5528]

Mr. Page and Mr. Pallamary,
I applaud you for the work you are doing for this science we are a part of. Changing the name of "Land Surveying" or making the exam "easier" is not the answer to get more surveyors, After the math fundamental requirements (college level) much of this information still needs to be conveyed by the "experienced" professionals. Most private and even public agencies are unwilling to pay for the time needed to do this. I personally vow to continue the pursuit in this education, because I know it is the right thing to do.

[mpallamary]

Agreed. There is a lot of work to do. If CLSA wants to have any influence, there needs to be a unified voice. Evan and others are working hard; the strength is in the numbers and involvement.

Where is CLSA?

[E_Page]

At this weekend's Board of Director's meeting, we had reports on activities by members in the TrigStar program (which I feel is a good benefit to students going into any STEM career path, but of little demonstrated value to surveying - but it is involvement) and the BSA Merit Badge program.

Stephen Hughey gave a very glowing report, describing excellent participation among the scouts and a lot of great feedback from them. At least one Eagle Scout with over 300 merit badges had written that this was the best elective merit badge training he had participated in. Way to go Stephen!

So when you ask "Where is the CLSA?", be aware that its members are out there doing outreach.

Can more be done? Sure. But again, realize that it's all done on volunteer time by people often spending their own money as well as their time. Perhaps if there were individuals whose strengths were in administration, those people could do initial coordination with schools and with scout troops to gauge interest and do the initial coordination to set up a career day booth, an opportunity for a practicing surveyor to speak to a class, or a weekend for Merit Badge exercises, and seek surveyors interested in volunteering a few hours or a day here and there to meet those opportunities.

We all have different strengths. Those who can see getting enjoyment and satisfaction giving a group of scouts or HS students some hands-on training with field equipment may dread the preliminary work of finding out who should be contacted, and wading through any administrative nonsense the school imposes just to set up a simple demonstration or training session. Others are very good at and may even thrive on that sort of work, getting a lot of satisfaction in getting several such events arranged. We need people to fill both roles to have more than very isolated instances of effectiveness.

Some help by educating, formally or informally, those who have already decided to learn about surveying. Some help by attending strategy meetings. And some help by being the boots on the ground, getting directly involved with high school age and younger kids to give them a glimpse of what surveying is all about.

It's that last group that I applaud the most. I've helped by trying to teach through a few speaking and writing opportunities and have participated in at least one strategy meeting, but don't know if I have the patience to be effective in trying to bring surveying to kids. Those hands-on folks are the people that are putting key parts of any plan together while others continue to contemplate what the plan should be. They understand, see first hand, and take it on themselves to deliver the most effective part of any plan to interest new generations. Without those of you who get involved in the Merit Badge program, map judging contests, career days, and even TrigStar, those of us who teach newer surveyors about various aspects of practice would have fewer to speak to.

[Rob_LS]

Thank you Mike Walters for starting a great topic that touches on many issues. Training; Education; Relevant Curriculum; Mentoring; History; Career Progression; Future; Work Ethic; Volunteerism; Outreach; Recruitment; National Engagement; Statewide Response; Local Action; Trig*Star; and Brainstorming. Each of these could be a topic unto itself.

I have heard many times that Trig*Star is "of little benefit" but I beg to differ. I believe there is at least one student at CSU Fresno who was introduced to surveying through Trig*Star. I know - one student for all that effort, but let's look at it from a different perspective. Trig*Star is a gateway into the schools, to meet the teachers and administrators, and into the minds of the students. Last week, a Trig*Star exam was proctored to 150 students here in the Sacramento area. Several years ago I assisted with a presentation, and as we were walking across the campus with a tripod and total station, a number of students exclaimed "The surveyors are here!" Recognition of who we are and what we are doing is critical. Far better than "Take my picture!"

A number of us are working on this at a national level with NCEES. We have solicited input and comments from CLSA. To date, we have not had a response. and Where is CLSA?

"Where is CLSA?" CLSA is right here. We are here as individuals and as a collective. Clearly there are many people working to devise solutions and share ideas.

"we have not had a response." When I got word of this Forum being held, I asked "How can I help? How can I be involved?" and the answer I got from an invited participant was along the lines of "The guest list is closed." No - I did not go straight to NCEES, kick down the door, and demand to participate, but maybe I should have. I have read their report, thought up some ideas (listed below), and shared them with NCEES. If you have ideas to share, Nina Norris is the Director of Public Affairs, nnorris@ncees.org. I don't know if she wants the ideas, but maybe someone else at NCEES, would be interested in hearing what others have to say.

With respect to Recruitment, did anyone ask young people - current college and university Land Surveying program students - what appeals to them about the profession?
Are current college and university Land Surveying program students willing to write articles for their high school and middle school newspapers and newsletter (blogs?) about the amazing things they are learning?
Can we publicize the scholarship awards that current college and university Land Surveying program students are receiving in their high school and middle school newspapers, newsletters and blogs?
Can we publicize the scholarship awards that current college and university Land Surveying program students are receiving in their college and university newspapers, newsletters, blogs and television programs?
Can we publicize the scholarship awards that current college and university Land Surveying program students are receiving in local newspapers and television?
Can we have articles published in college and university newspapers and television programs on the programs of study, internships and career opportunities?
I have been collecting and distributing trade magazines, (POB, American Surveyor, XYHt, etc) to local high school teachers with whom I and my colleagues have formed relationships through NSPS Trig*Star and other programs.
Additionally, I have begun buying used textbooks on surveying to give to those same high schools.

I know there are a hundred of you out there with better ideas than I listed here. Please share them!

[Kurt Lehnhardt]

( I think Rob beat me to this by about three hours but I am going to post it anyway)

Mr. Pallamari, I think you may be undestimating the people in this profession. I know there are many surveyors out there doing outreach to young people. I can think of six off the top of my head just in my little area. You just don’t hear about it because many of these people are not interested in publicity or praise. They just do it because they know it needs to be done.

One of my favorite quotes is Theodore Roosevelt’s:
“Every man owes a part of his time and money to the business or industry in which he is engaged. No man has a moral right to withhold his support from an organization that is striving to improve conditions within his sphere.”

What has CLSA done? I think it was 2006 and I was on the Board and we approved the funding of the surveypath.org website and the production of a video geared toward recruiting young people. The web site is still there and the video is on You Tube. Also, CLSA HQ has files of examples and handout materials that can be used to do presentation. They even have complete power point presentations if you don’t want to make your own. All you have to do is ask for them.

CLSA has a Public Relations Committee but maybe we should also have an Outreach committee.
That said, I’d like to share some (I know, nobody asked) outreach tips from my personal experience. This is just my two cents worth. I don’t like to do high school career days anymore, but if you like it, go for it. It’s a good place to start, especially if you have never done any outreach before.

Look for MESA (Math Engineering Science Achievement) groups at your local high schools or community colleges. ( google it) I also hit high school engineering clubs and academies. These kids are already thinking in the frame of mind that we want to steer to our profession. The teachers are usually thrilled to get a guest speaker ( if they can fit you into their tight schedules). Also look for Intro to Engineering classes, even at universities. Same reason.

Kurt Lehnhardt, PLS 7832

[mpallamary]

Thanks guys! I have been actively involved in CLSA for 35 years and the association has great potential. It is not being utilized. For starters, we should be active with NSPS to join a national voice and we should support continuing education like nearly every other state across the union.

I have spoken to more clubs and associations than I can remember and continue to do so.

Actions speak louder than words. None of this should be taken personally; something should be done. I believe we should focus our efforts with a unified national voice.

[mpallamary]

https://nsps.site-ym.com/general/regist ... r_type.asp?

AR and CA currently do not participate in the 100% membership program.

[Rob_LS]

Stand by for more info!

[Administrator]

An email from CLSA regarding the Forum on the Future of Surveying can be found here: http://conta.cc/1rWMjnE

If you did not receive the email directly please contact info@californiasurveyors.org to ensure your contact information is current.

[TTaylor]

IMO, I think that talking with high school and university students to communicate the value of the surveying profession to the community is always a good idea and any other efforts should always be encouraged.

Part of what I communicated when I traveled around the state as the president-elect before ..........was a perspective and a plan to expose grade school students to the land surveying profession. Something more than a coloring book.

This is a longer term approach. However, I think that if children are exposed to the great things about surveying early it may make a mark on their minds that will germinate over time into wanting to join our ranks.

[E_Page]

Great idea Tom. In El Dorado County, the County Surveyor's office has sponsored a map contest for elementary and middle school students for many years now. I think that's an excellent way of exposing kids to an aspect of surveying that is educational and fun.