unlicensed Survey Manager

[pls5528]

Based upon the section in the California B&P Codes, I understand that the section below does NOT allow a "Survey Manager" to manage survey activities, unless they are a Licensed Land Surveyor?
8726. Land Surveying Defined
A person, including any person employed by the state of by the city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:
K) Coordinates the work of professional, technical, or special consultants in connection with the activities authorized by this chapter.
J) Manages, or conducts as manager, proprietor, or agent, any place of business from which land surveying work is solicited, performed or practiced.

I have experienced companies doing this with unlicensed personnel, and would appreciates peer review on this take on the law.

Thank you,
Mike Walters PLS

[T. S. Higgins]

The only exceptions I'm aware of would be if the individual is working for a public agency, and was in responsible charge of the work on January 1st, 1986. Often you'll find public utilities that believe they're exempt as well under the 8730 (c) exemption, because they don't read onward to 8730 (c) (2).

[dedkad]

As long as the "Survey Manager" is working under the direction of a licensed surveyor or authorized RCE, then I believe they would be OK, as is the case with any survey technician or LSIT. I'm not aware that the title "Survey Manager" is a protected title, so from what information you've presented, I don't see any laws being broken.

[pls5528]

Section 8726 addresses, both Public and Private capacity above. The issue I have is "K) Coordinates the work of professional, technical, or special consultants in connection with the activities authorized by this chapter.". Unless licensed, I read this to be unlawful relative to this section of the law.

[E_Page]

If the person is in the capacity of a field crew coordinator working under the direction of a LS or pre-82 CE, then I would agree with dedkad. If the person is in a position of actually managing the survey department in the company, then they are ostensibly making professional level decisions and that would be a violation of 8726(k).

I've seen this several times, almost always in engineering companies who want surveying in-house but are too cheap to hire an experienced and knowledgeable LS. Many engineers chafe at the idea of having to pay the same or similar salary to manage surveying as they do for an engineer in a managing position because they view surveying as a rather simplistic technical subset of civil engineering - they think it's nothing more than measuring and pounding hubs. Also, a LSIT is much more controllable than a LS with many years of experience to develop opinions of his own which may be inconvenient for the expedient processing of engineering projects or add unnecessarily to the budgets of those projects by including extra work and procedures that LSs with several years of experience tend to always insist are needed.

I made the mistake of accepting such a position as an LSIT, twice (I can't claim to be the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to office politics and spotting hidden agendas - knumbskull that I've been known to be from time to time, rather than seeing the unscrupulous reasons that were behind the offers, I thought that there must be a real shortage of good LSs). It was a very uncomfortable position for someone on their way to getting licensed and also wanting to do things right. Each time, I accepted on the condition that there would be a LS to review all final work product and to be available for questions and guidance as necessary.

1st time, I hired on working under an LS who turned out to be a screw up. He was fired and I was offered the job. They had a contract with a surveying company for supplemental services and arranged for their primary LS to be "officially" in charge. Neither the LS nor I were comfortable with it, seeing eye to eye. Wasn't long before I was being pressured to not bring them in so often due to budgetary constraints. I left a few months later.

2nd time, I was at a satellite office of a larger company and was told that the primary LS in the main office would review work and be available for guidance. Nobody had notified him, so he was taken by surprise when I contacted him and said I had a couple maps to review and sending the job files to him. He was far to busy with work in his own office to review my work in a timely manner. After expressing my discomfort with my immediate, on-site supervisor (a post-82 CE), he said he would take care of the issue. He supposedly took care of it by going around the LS to the semi-retired owner/founder of the company (a pre-82 CE), who was supposedly reviewing and signing the maps.

I got my CA license not long after, but later found out that the boss hadn't been sending maps and the owner never saw them and likely was never aware of them. I don't know why, but my boss had a rubber stamp of the owner's signature in his desk and was using that on the maps. Should have turned him in, but just started looking for other opportunities instead, eventually going to company where, as a fairly new LS, I was working under the direction of a far more experienced LS, and had two other more experienced LS's to go to with questions.

Since then, I've known two LSITs who had been offered similar positions. I advised them to run away and not look back. For the unlicensed person being offered the position, it's often a difficult decision. They see an opportunity offered that may not come again for 15 or 20 years if they pass it up. On the other side, they know that they are going to be in over their head for a while, but hope & believe they can tread that water until they've grown into the job. They will be uncomfortable with not having the safety net of a more experienced surveyor to go to for advice and may be vaguely aware that the legality of having an unlicensed person managing a licensed activity is questionable at best. If they are being offered the position in a company they already work for, it might even be tacitly presented as "move up or move out", "be a team player", "we need you to do this", "you don't have to accept, but if you don't, we will have to lay off the field crews and the survey office staff". It's a crappy position to be in. I'm sure that there's many unlicensed survey managers who don't feel the same way I did/do about it. Those are the ones I really worry about because they already think they know it all and will eventually become crappy licensed surveyors.

Don't necessarily assume that the unlicensed survey manager is happy in that position without first talking to them about the legality (or lack thereof) of that position. He or she may be hoping for a viable escape route, or at least solid reasoning to go to their boss and show them that they need to get an LS on staff. If they seem to think there's nothing wrong with their managing a licensed activity and tell you or strongly hint that you should mind your own business, forward it to BPELSG.

[pls5528]

Evan,
I think we may have worked for some of the same firms?
I will sign off with a quote from a great warrior and leader, George S. Patton "“Do more than is required of you.”