Boundary Lines and Setbacks

[mpallamary]

Is anyone aware of a method or procedure wherein someone, other than a land surveyor, can establish property/boundary/lot lines? As a corollary, does anyone know of a way to show building setback lines, without knowing where the property/boundary/lot lines are?

Thanks folks.

[SPMPLS]

As I believe has been mentioned here before, if you own a 40 acre parcel and the developed portion is near the center and you want to build a permitted shop near your house, I see no reason why a surveyor should be involved. The owner could use Google Earth or the County GIS to show approximate property lines and the associated setbacks therefrom and still be hundreds of feet from where the proposed structure will be built. Obviously this wouldn't be acceptable for the neighborhoods you work in, but here in the Sierra Nevada foothills, as in many other rural areas of the state, I see no problem with it.

Like almost everything, it depends.

[mpallamary]

Thanks! I appreciate that but if I may, that is not the question. If you have a second can you review the question again? The question has nothing to do with any kind of plans or documents. It only has to do with establishing property/boundary/lot lines.

[SPMPLS]

[quote="mpallamary" As a corollary, does anyone know of a way to show building setback lines, without knowing where the property/boundary/lot lines are?[/quote]

Did I not answer this question? I gave an example where the building setback lines can be shown on something, presumably plans or a permit application, while using a method other than a surveyor on the ground to show the boundary lines from which they are measured.

Not any plans or documents? Why would anyone need to know where the property lines and the corresponding setbacks are for no purpose at all? If they aren't needed for a plan/map/exhibit or some sort of other document, they aren't needed at all. You said "show" (bolded in the quote above). Show on what if there are no plans or documents involved?

[mpallamary]

Thanks! I appreciate the reply!

Be safe.

[SPMPLS]

Thank you for the compelling response to set me straight. Very enlightening.

Much appreciated. I learned a lot.

[mpallamary]

Forgive me, I was doing my best. My head is a little groggy as I have been bedridden with a medical problem and I am on some strong medications. It was not my intent to slight you.

My question relates to the general concept of land surveying and the fundamentals of what we do. If a city wants a plan showing the location of a building on a residential lot, in an urban setting, on a 50' X 100' lot and they want the property lines shown to the nearest hundredth of a foot and building setbacks from a property line, how is that done unless you do a survey? I have been researching this topic across the state of California and some municipalities state that a land surveyor has to prepare such a document and others, require these conditions, but do not state that a land surveyor must prepare the document. Some municipalities do not require that a licensed land surveyor prepare the document, even though the law requires it. I was asking the question in more general terms and not with such specificity as I did not want to get city or county specific. I have abandoned that restriction and have attached several document for you to look at.

In many instances, I have been involved with projects wherein if the city or county does not require that certain documents and maps be prepared by a licensed individual, the perception is that it is not required. Obviously a city's ignorance, does not mean I can avoid my duties under the law. I have had clients argue with me about filing a Corner Record or Record of Survey, simply because the city doesn't require it. I still have my duties under state law

We used to have this problem with ALTA surveys. We often competed with other surveyors who did not include the filing of a Record of Survey with the job and for those of us who included that as part of our fees, lost the work. As Gary Kent notes in the attached letter, there could be liability issues and other problems.

How do you interpret the attached?

PS, Be safe. I am sorry for the perceived slight. My bad.

[SPMPLS]

In my original reply, I stated that the example I gave for a rural setting would not be acceptable for high value, urban settings where space is more valuable and less available, such as where you practice. Even in rural settings I have been hired to certify setbacks because the proposed construction (pool, house addition, shop, etc...) were going to be close enough to the setback that the owner needed a surveyor to make the determination.

The regulations of our profession can often place us in situations where what we must do is not what our client wants us to do or is willing to pay for. If a client wants setback lines, and during the course of establishing the boundary (or if it has never been shown on a map) you find a trigger to file a Record of Survey, your contract best contain appropriate clauses and the associated costs, or you are now on the hook without compensation. The same is true if the authoritative agency requires a surveyor to be involved or not. If one is, they are bound by the laws of our practice or subject to disciplinary action.

I agree that in all instances where boundary lines/setbacks must be properly established, it must be done by a PLS or a pre-82 PE and all agencies should require such. Based on what you have stated, that is not the case, but that doesn't relieve the practitioner of their duties. One can wish that all counties and cities would recognize and adhere to all laws, but making that happen is another matter entirely. If we lose work because of it, that is unfortunate, but its not likely work or clients you want anyway, if they don't understand the value added of having a licensed surveyor involved and the liability the surveyor takes on by doing so.

I hope you feel better soon.

[hellsangle]

Seems the onus in always on the surveyor.

Solution: As part of the permitting process John Q. Public shall be required to take out a permit for a boundary, performed by a surveyor or engineer authorized to practice surveying of his/her choosing. Now Mr. Public is "on the hook" for those fees at the County Surveyor's Office. Before the surveyor may commence his/her survey he/she needs a copy of the paid Boundary Permit.

Yep. Crazy Phil - Surveyor to Recorder / add: Permit for Boundary

[mpallamary]

Thanks SMPLS. I am trying to stay out of the hospital if at all possible. If I have to go in, it will be for a surgery I want to avoid.

To you and hellsangle, do you guys believe that under the scenarios I presented, and based on the respective city/county guidelines, that only a land surveyor can determine boundary lines and setback lines if they are going to prepare on of these documents, even though, in some instances, the city/county does not mention it? The penultimate question is, can only a land surveyor prepare one of these documents because the requirement is to establish boundary lines and setbacks?

Thanks again fellows.

[SPMPLS]

I think I made it quite clear what I think with regards to who can legally establish boundaries to prepare such maps/documents. However, what I think has zero influence on what any agency thinks or requires.

[mpallamary]

Thanks! I appreciate it.

[mpallamary]

Hello SPMPLS,

I believe there is a way to deal with the notion that you have zero influence on what and agency thinks or requires. Would you be interested in influencing this process so the agencies do care and that they listen to you? If so, PM me.

[SPMPLS]

I haven't done private surveys in 25 years and don't plan to ever again. I admire your desire to change the world in the name of what is right, but I plan to expend my energy in retirement on other things in life. I contribute to the profession in my own ways and plan to still do so on some level. However, it will be in arenas where I know I can make a positive difference, not locking horns with agencies to compel them to recognize the PLS Act or the Public Resources Code.

Perhaps you would be better served to let go of some of the causes you have taken up and allow CLSA to operate as they see fit in 2020 and beyond? Life is too short to be in a fight all the time. Just my opinion after 43 years of surveying in my 61 years of sucking air.

All the best to you, sir.

[mpallamary]

Many thanks,

Be well and stay healthy!

[LS_8750]

I would like to see 2019 CBC Section 107.2.6 brought into the foundation of each so called "site plan" in each jurisdiction across the state. On several jobs, I've seen chunks of buildings lopped off the design during rough grading and sent back to planning for 6 months delay or more.

[mpallamary]

Closing thought.

I am CLSA. An organization is comprised of its members and I am a member which means I have a voice. I have been involved with CLSA since 1979 and I have been surveying since 1971. Surveying is a big part of me. In life and land surveying, I try to make a difference every day of my life. It is in my DNA. The number of younger surveyors who reach out to me for help and advice as to how to deal with various agencies always amazes me. So many of them are afraid and seeking direction. There is a need for these guys and gals and someone needs to answer the call.

I truly wish you the best in your endeavors. Every person must find their own path and follow it.

Stay well!