Splitting Curbs in Oakland

[mpallamary]

Has anyone had any experience splitting curbs to establish boundary lines in Oakland? Is it a local custom and practice and does it meet the regional standard of care?

Thanks all.

[Steve Martin]

Years ago, I had the County Surveyor's office tell me that was the best way to establish the boundary.
,
To me, using the centerline monuments that are out there is far better than making an assumption that construction crews used some kind of better evidence to set the curbs.

I even added an extra sheet to my Record of Survey to show the variability in the curbs in the block relative to the monument line.

[mpallamary]

Thanks! That makes sense. Everytime I did curb measurements, they were never straight. It is a rule of last resort in La Jolla where the streets are curvilinear (as you know) and there are no dimensions on the map. The Carey notes let us know how the streets were laid out.


The block in Oakland is rectangular shaped.

[LA Stevens]

A number of years ago I gave a proposal to a client to conduct a boundary survey and file a Record of Survey on a subdivision lot where the underlying map did not have any monuments shown to control the boundary or did is show the curbs. The County Surveyor at the time informed the client that an ROS was not necessary and the surveyor could split the curbs and file a Corner Record. I refused to do the job without filing an ROS and did not get the job..

Where no monumentation exists to control the boundaries, I have found the curbs along with other evidence (buildings, fences, walls, etc...) to be sufficient for determining the boundary where you find substantial agreement.

Good luck,
Larry

[mpallamary]

Thanks! Do you know if there are any Records of Survey that have been filed showing curb split boundaries?

[Ian Wilson]

Michael:

There has been much confusion about splitting curbs. PLS Act §8765(d) allows for the filing of Corner Records when the lines are already shown on record maps provided that there are no material discrepancies and that SUFFICIENT MONUMENTATION IS FOUND TO ESTABLISH THE PRECISE LOCATION OF PROPERTY CORNERS [shown] THEREON.

While I agree that, under certain circumstances, splitting curbs provides solid evidence for the location of the streets and blocks, two shots along the length of the curb is not usually sufficient. I have been amazed at how linear and how parallel older curb lines have actually proved to be. I have filed a few maps that are based solely on curb splits, but, I would not consider curb splits to be even remotely acceptable as MONUMENTS. I prefer that a note be placed on the map indicating that curb splits have been used and that the splits are based on best fit lines along each curb line with the centerlines being established from those best fit lines.

To quote the 1933 version of the PLS Act: “…show all the data necessary to enable any competent surveyor readily to retrace the survey…” My interpretation of that is that any questions about methods, data, or procedures should be answered by the map and require no phone calls or seances.

PM me or call me off line to discuss and to get access to a few maps that have been filed and based, in part, on curb splits.

[mpallamary]

Will do! I owe you a call. Too many balls in the air!

[dharri]

As noted above, curb splits should be utilized as a last resort and then very carefully. While employed by the San Diego County Surveyor’s office, I reviewed a R of S that employed a curb split to locate the interior lot lines. The R of S showed encroachments. The neighboring property owner retained his own land surveyor. The neighbor’s land surveyor was able to locate an original subdivision monument. Based upon the original monument, the opposite curbs were not on the same offset from centerline. Placing the centerline in the correct location from the curbs relative to the original monument, the encroachments disappeared. Occasionally, existing improvements are the only evidence that we have of the original lot lines; we just need to be very careful in using them.

[mpallamary]

Excellent! I appreciate your input as always!

Happy Fourth of July!

[wingding]

RS 3051 and RS 3301 shows curb splits mixed with street monuments

[mpallamary]

San Diego?

[mpallamary]

Not San Diego. Alameda County?

[wingding]

Alameda County

https://www.acgov.org/ms/surveyordocsearch/

[mpallamary]

Many thanks! Those surveys were very helpful.

[Anthony Maffia]

These are my experiences.

There are areas in the Oakland flat lands where subdivisions weren't monumented. Fortunately, the 100 year old curbs are often remarkably straight, and are excellent evidence of the block side lines.

The city placed monuments, years after construction, along major roads, but not at every intersection. They're very good, but I do check curbs against record locations based on the later monuments, and adjust blocks as necessary.

[mpallamary]

Excellent! Great information. Many thanks!

[Ian Wilson]

A case pertinent to Herr Mafia's comments...

Nizam-Aldine v. City of Oakland.pdf

[mpallamary]

Thanks! Always found this case interesting!

[Anthony Maffia]

Good history reading, up to Discussion. Sad it doesn't address the final boundary determination, but this was a defamation case. There don't appear to be any filed R/S maps addressing it.

Does anyone have The Rest Of The Story (RIP Paul Harvey)?

[Ian Wilson]

No idea on the rest of the story. i would be very interested if anyone has more insight.

And, no further maps have been filed on this area. I have a couple of Corner Records but they do not shed any light.

Here are some relevant maps:

[Ian Wilson]

Here is the current City Monument Map, Sheet 292.

[PLS7393]

Well since I have been surveying in the Bay Area for 35+/- years, I've seen various issues that have been discussed and how the mapping requirements (standard of care) has changed over the years, as newer County Surveryor's had higher standards. All Bay Area Counties use to allow for corner records to be filed using curb splits, being the best evidence of the subdivision when monuments were not originally set. If there was no material discrepancy, I don't see the need for a record of survey, except for clarity. Sometimes this could have been done, but most of the time a record of survey would allow for a better map. Remember both a corner record and record of survey is that surveyor's opinion and doesn't stand on it's own feet if proven otherwise.

Around 7 years ago, things changed with the authority and it was resolved that if performing a survey solely on curb slits, a record of survey is required.
This extra work and costs to the homeowner on a simple subdivision is unfortunate and it does not simplify the process, as we are licensed to "Protect the Public", so they say. We can still prepare and file a corner record if we have one street monument, and use curb splits for a Basis of Bearing, holding the monument.

My opinion is it may be a good thing to require a record of survey if surveying the block by curb splits, and yes I have done them. Another issue is how one does a curb split. I was taught by a couple old timers who always said you split curbs at the returns, no mid points, as the returns is a better interpretation of the original intent for street alignment. Mid points have a tendency to drift, shift, land movement. There are streets in San Jose that the curbs literally look line a snake.

Ian originally mentioned this topic relative to Oakland, but one should look at mapping on the island of Alameda. Very few, if any, street monuments were set with the original subdivision, and they are not rectangular in any means. I do not like surveying in Alameda due to the complexity and knowing a good survey will cost $15K, something I don't want to take on, and explain to the client why my survey cost so much more than others. I simply take a pass on those requests and send them to the CLSA "Find a Surveyor".

[Steve Martin]

Have you checked with the City of Alameda to see what drawings they have Keith?

I only have one Record of Survey filed in Alameda, but in that case we relied on " City of Alameda Coordinate Map DWG 4807, Case 51, April 1959" which shows the relationship to the right of way from the USC&GS monuments near many of the block corners.

I used to work for a public agency that has 90 years of survey and maps of property surveys. Many Surveyors missed this important evidence of long established property lines. The County is not the only place for survey records to be found.

[JoshPLS]

I agree with Larry that I have a hard time splitting curbs and filing a Corner Record although I have seen many Corners Records in the East Bay that do that. Curb splitting is sometimes the best available evidence, but I wouldn't ignore street monuments in the vicinity. Locate the street monuments and see how they fit with the curb alignment.

Above Steve mentioned to check in with the City of Alameda. Thats a good suggestion. I have reached out to the City of Alameda and they provided me with monument cards that had additional information that the monument maps did not show. The cards described distances to the centerline and were crucial for right of way determination.

[mpallamary]

Thank you for those insights! I appreciate it very much. I think we can give good direction to the surveyor who is working on this.

Be safe and well!